If you can't speak Latin in Rome...

[einzelne]

I think the more interesting experiment would be to go to a classics department of a top university and see if academic Latinists can speak it at Luke's level.

They don't. But the fact is that actually the don't need it. The real question whether or not they can sight read original texts with something like 98-99 comprehension. Btw I'm not sure if Luke can easily sight read any random Roman text.

[Iversen]

I wouldn't expect them (i.e. the academics) to speak Latin either, but the very least you could expect of them was that they could read Latin fluently, and then it would be a bonus if they could write in or maybe speak the language themselves. I have not studied at any of the institutes in question so I only have secondhand information, but those testimonies that claim that you can get an exam in a classical language without being able to read it yourself are terrifying, to say the least. It would (if it is true) be a symptom of a systematic rot in the humanities, where real hardcore knowledge is pushed out in favour of the ability to blabber about generalities and currently popular topics in a language permeated by politically correct newspeak.

But it is not a totally new phenomenon. When I studied at a 'modern and comparative' literature institute in the mid 80s we had to be able to read fluently in Danish, English, German (literature theory from DDR, bvadr !!!!!!) and maybe also the other Scandinavian languages (but not Icelandic). When I participated in a study excursion to Moscow and Leningrad in 1974 the simple sad fact was that not ONE of the participants on the tour could communicate in Russian - not even at the most basic A0 level. I did at least teach myself the alphabet, so I may have been the most advanced learner in the company...

As for Latin in the Roman-Catholic church .. well, are anyone apart from a few staunch conservatives and a few linguistically minded clerics really interested in retaining it? They may continue to say (or sing) the mass in Latin because of some kind of nostalgic feeling, but I doubt that they care about active skills anymore. And since the classical Romans weren't Christians (yet) the clerics don't have any real reason to adopt a reconstructed pronunciation - so they keep their own.

[Le Baron]

Btw I'm not sure if Luke can easily sight read any random Roman text.

He can! And 'ancient' Greek. It's frightening. He seems to have really applied himself.

He's also a military helicopter pilot, I don't know where he finds the time.

[einzelne]

Btw I'm not sure if Luke can easily sight read any random Roman text.

He can! And 'ancient' Greek. It's frightening. He seems to have really applied himself.

Hmm, it's a very bold claim. Can you provide any evidence? (For the record, I deeply respect Luke and think he's doing a tremendous job for Latin enthusiasts. But there are simply some structural difficulties when it comes to sight reading any random text.)

[Le Baron]

How do I provide evidence?

[einzelne]

How do I provide evidence?

Well, what made you think that he can sight read almost everything?

[Le Baron]

He read entire texts (in Latin and Greek) in parts live on YT during the lockdown. I would ask though, why wouldn't he be able to? It's not like he learned the language walking among Latin speakers in Rome, so he clearly got it from text-based sources.

It seems to me that whilst he is not a classicist in the strict sense (for obvious reasons) he has something a lot of classicists don't have: mastery of both written AND spoken Latin. Moreover, I don't think he has to be put in comparison/competition.

[einzelne]

He read entire texts (in Latin and Greek) in parts live on YT during the lockdown.

If he worked with the texts before his online sessions and then discussed them, it doesn't mean he sight read them in the first place.

As a nonnative English speaker I'm pretty comfortable in everyday and academic situations (though my English is, of course, not perfect). And although not a native speaker, I can easily read out loud a random play of Shakespeare. However, if I haven't read this play before with a dictionary and glosses, a lot of things would still escape me.

It's the same with Latin and Greek. In general, good readers of Classics are re-readers. Here's a relevant article. I don't agree with all the claims it makes (and the pessimistic conclusions). But it signals some difficulties — a long tail of low frequency words which in case of highly crafted and sophisticated texts are essential for understanding the author's idea. The only way you can store them in your long term memory is either by constant reviewing of vocabulary, or by limiting your expertise to specific texts.

In general though, isn't it the same correlation between speaking and reading classical works in living languages? You can feel pretty comfortable in your L2 otherwise, while reading classics (depending on the author, of course) might still be a significant challenge. The situation is exacerbated by the fact that I'm separated from Goethe by 200 years, while in case of Latin and Greek it is 2000 and even more.

[Le Baron]

I'm inclined to agree, which makes me again think: why does Luke Ranieri have to be a perfect reader? Or be compared to a classicist? His thing is speaking Latin, but he can clearly read it.

[einzelne]

I'm inclined to agree, which makes me again think: why does Luke Ranieri have to be a perfect reader? Or be compared to a classicist? His thing is speaking Latin, but he can clearly read it.

He doesn't have to be. My point is simple: let's celebrate his achievements but let's not exaggerate his competence. So that others would have realistic expectations. And really, when it comes to classical works, there's nothing shameful about checking dictionary or critical apparatus time and then.