Best App for language learning

General discussion about learning languages
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Le Baron
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Re: Best App for language learning

Postby Le Baron » Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:29 pm

I've been negative about Anki, but I've actually started using it again just recently and it seems to agree with me this time. I'm making very random word sets gleaned from reading and sets of useful common phrases. Its best feature (apart from its obvious function) is that you can arrange the learning material for yourself. So it's different from, rather than 'better than', other apps which might be teaching as yet unknown material.

I'm not too keen on some other things like Kwiziq. It has good content, but it feels very random sometimes and as if they're drip-feeding little bits. A snack when you need a meal. I'm not knocking it because I've used it.

Duolingo is mainly for fun. It's also good for just hammering a particular thing e.g. past-tense when you feel like testing yourself. So long as you don't get hooked into the idea that you must now finish the entire past-tense module or you've "failed". That's what can happen at Duolingo. They also do underhanded things there like blocking the discussions when there are obvious errors they refuse to fix and lots of people have commented about it. You click on 'discussion' and nothing happens.
Last edited by Le Baron on Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Best App for language learning

Postby Kraut » Mon Jul 12, 2021 6:36 pm

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefo ... ictionary/

With Firefox's addon "Pop-Up Dictionary by R Leung" you can give a lot of language learning tools a pop up function. One click on a word and "Deepl Translate", "Tatoeba", "Diccionario reverso", "Google picture search" etc will appear to be consulted.
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Re: Best App for language learning

Postby garyb » Mon Jul 12, 2021 7:07 pm

My thoughts on a few of the apps discussed so far:

DuoLingo: it certainly has many flaws which have been discussed extensively in other threads, but I am finding that the desktop browser version is much more useful (as it allows typing answers rather than just selecting words) and gives a much better user experience than the app. Which is a shame since Duo is the type of resource that would be very well-suited to using in small chunks on the go rather than sitting at a desk. I'd never use it as a main or only resource, but as an accessory at beginner or low-intermediate level it has its uses.

Clozemaster: I tried it years ago and gave it another chance recently but I've just never liked it. Too much gamification, bad user interface, and lots of ambiguity in the sentences especially if you use the free-form mode rather than multiple-choice. Some people love it so I think it's just one of these things that suits certain personalities more than others.

Anki: I've been using it daily for years, and while I don't love it (I've never thought the interval algorithm is great since they released V2 and never quite managed to tweak the settings to something that suits me) but in a few minutes of work per day it helps keep all my languages alive and keep a bunch of vocabulary of questionable utility at the back of my mind, and it's free with no ads (except on iOS maybe?) so I can't complain.

Kwiziq: Good in small doses for mastering usage that isn't necessarily covered well in more traditional resources. It does get repetitive though as it tends to hammer at the same few points for a while and I start to recognise the questions so it becomes more a test of pattern recall than of language use. Still, I've learnt quite a few very useful Spanish constructions from it and the example sentences make good Anki fodder. I don't really understand their business model since the price seems out of proportion with what it offers and the free test limit is more than sufficient, although maybe at less advanced levels it's suited to more extensive use.

Memrise: It's probably good but whenever I've tried it I struggled to find a deck that suited me.

LingoDeer: it just felt like a poor imitation of DuoLingo in the languages I've tried. But apparently it is better for East Asian languages.

Language Learning With Netflix: awesome! Easy dual subtitles plus some language-learner-oriented features is something I had always wanted, and it delivers. The only flaw is that it only works on Chrome (and that it's Netflix-specific and the Netflix catalogue in most of the languages I study is quite limited, but that's hardly the app's fault! And there is a similar extension for YouTube). Again I don't understand their business model as all the useful stuff is free.

As far as apps that aren't specifically for language learning but I use for convenient input, Podcast Addict is the main one. And of course YouTube but it's another one that's much better on desktop than mobile.
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Re: Best App for language learning

Postby Le Baron » Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:39 pm

Kraut wrote:https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/pop-up-dictionary/

With Firefox's addon "Pop-Up Dictionary by R Leung" you can give a lot of language learning tools a pop up function. One click on a word and "Deepl Translate", "Tatoeba", "Diccionario reverso", "Google picture search" etc will appear to be consulted.


Great. I just installed this, it's excellent!
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Re: Best App for language learning

Postby Kraut » Mon Jul 12, 2021 11:25 pm

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Re: Best App for language learning

Postby ryanheise » Wed Jul 14, 2021 4:38 am

These days I find myself gravitating toward apps that faciltate social interaction: HelloTalk, Tandem, and Skype (usually the first two apps help me to meet language exchange partners, then we end up transferring over to Skype.) I didn't used to be this socially driven, and actually used to want to get away from the busy day-to-day world and be "in my own space" to do language learning, but all of the recent, prolonged social distancing has left me needing more of the social element to language learning.

Outside of that, I just use some custom-made scripts and programs within Linux to help me to do targeted practice, which I find is a good substitute for apps. It's really interesting to see Stuart Jay Raj's recent MindKraft project where he is aiming to teach non-technical people to do the same sort of thing (I wonder how this will go? Acquiring technical skills like this would require the same sort of commitment as language learning - you'd have to use it or lose it.)

Stuart Jay's "No app will teach you a language" video:

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Re: Best App for language learning

Postby thelazyoxymoron » Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:32 pm

ryanheise wrote:Outside of that, I just use some custom-made scripts and programs within Linux to help me to do targeted practice, which I find is a good substitute for apps.

I'd be interested to hear more about this :)
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Re: Best App for language learning

Postby ryanheise » Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:41 am

thelazyoxymoron wrote:
ryanheise wrote:Outside of that, I just use some custom-made scripts and programs within Linux to help me to do targeted practice, which I find is a good substitute for apps.

I'd be interested to hear more about this :)


OK, so here is how it works (and why it might actually be of interest to language learners):

Linux is an alternative to Windows and macOS where the primary means of interaction is not through a point and click of the mouse, but rather through language!

(NOTE: macOS has something like Linux embedded within it, so everything I describe below is also possible on macOS.)

Some benefits of using a language to interact with a computer are:

1. You don't need a special app to do some task you have in mind; you can simply describe the task in the command language and the computer will do it.
2. Because the language is textual, any sequence of commands you come up with can be saved into a file called a "script", and then you can run that script any time on demand. (E.g. a script that plays out your desired language training routine.)
3. Because languages are good at describing abstract concepts, you can describe tasks in a generic way that can be applicable across a range of different concrete cases. E.g. Imagine saying to the computer "Count the number of words in each of the reports in this directory, and if any of those reports has more than 10,000 words, tell me the title and author of that report." By the way, appreciate the fact that those words "that report" at the end are not something that you could have pointed to with the mouse - the mouse is only useful in those simple cases where the thing you need is already right before your eyes. Actually, "that report" could refer to more than one report because of the word "any" (this example command was expressed in English, but in Linux you would instead use its command language.)

The downsides include:

1. It is harder to learn
2. If an app exists already, you may as well just use it. (But what if the app doesn't work exactly the way YOU want it to work?)

The idea of using languages rather than the mouse to talk to the computer is pervasive throughout Linux. Even the standard text editor vi (or Vim, which is Vi IMproved) which you might use to edit a report, or write down notes, is itself driven by its own language! e.g. typing "dw" does not type out the letters "d" and "w" into your file at the cursor position, but rather it deletes the next word. While "3dw" deletes the next 3 words. This language-oriented approach has the same benefits as above: It means that Vim is also scriptable, and you can make it automatically do routine things for you.

Some of Stuart Jay Raj's examples:

* Drilling Chinese characters with Vim: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmwNBGrt_Zw.
* Making your own Audio SRS file: https://stujay.com/how-to-build-the-ultimate-vocabulary-building-tool/.
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Re: Best App for language learning

Postby thelazyoxymoron » Fri Jul 16, 2021 3:55 pm

Thanks for those links. I should've framed my question in a better way - I'm familiar with Linux (software developer by profession), just wanted to know your workflow on how you're utilizing it to learn languages.

Appreciate the response though :)
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Re: Best App for language learning

Postby sirgregory » Fri Jul 30, 2021 7:39 am

Below is Prof. Arguelles's video on computer-based learning. It's from way back in 2008, but it's more about the big picture than about specific programs. He basically says that "CALL" has been around since the 1960s and he thinks it's generally overrated. He says many times he's been told of some hot new thing but he inevitably finds it to have no substantial advantage over traditional methods. Arguelles has often said that generally speaking language materials have gotten watered down over the decades and he says CALL programs often exemplify that general trend.



A typical course usually has explanations, dialogues, and exercises. Maybe if it were done extremely well there would be some benefit to doing all of this through an app. But in practice I haven't really seen it. For explanations and dialogues I like having an actual book, but exercises are an area where the computer should be able to do it better. I find doing exercises (to the extent I do them) on an app is more enjoyable and convenient, mostly because it can mix up the exercises better and can tell you if you got something right or wrong immediately without having to check an answer key. In theory, it should be able to assess your proficiency in different areas and figure out what you need to work on and review (adaptability). The only exercise-based app that I've tried extensively is Duolingo. I think I did like it better than a typical workbook mostly because of the instant feedback, but definitely not as for drilling specific grammar points. And on adapting to the learner which would be where an app could really outshine a workbook it's pretty much a flop. It makes everyone grind through the same exact tree. It assesses your level based purely on lesson volume ("crowns") which doesn't correlate that well with proficiency. From what I've heard of Kwiziq it sounds like they have more or less the right idea, but it's only available in two languages.
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