Pupil not picking up accent from native teacher

[luke]

but any claim putting the gulf between spoken/written language in French and English as roughly equal is wholly fictitious

That's correct, the gulf between spoken/written language in French and English is not roughly equal. It's much deeper in English than in French.

Funny, but completely erroneous.

I'm very curious about this. When I was a child, my parents bought my older brother a set of LPs (33 rpm records - LP = Long Play = about 20 minutes per side). These LPs were on "Phonics". There was also some textual support because the goal was to hook sound and spelling together. (My brother was 4 years older than me). He was probably in 5th grade or so. (5th year of primary school - about 10 or 11 or 12 years old - it was a long time ago). The course wasn't "Hooked on Phonics". That came out many years later.

I liked the records and listened to them a lot. Eventually they all became easy except the last one (6 LPs). I think I used them more than he did. It was fun to play with the record player and discover the secrets of of how English spelling mapped to sounds.

I don't think my brother used them much. He wasn't very good in school, but that was only because he was into the physical world and not books, unless it was to find out how something he was interested in worked. (My brother is super smart, but it didn't seem like it at the time).

I think the records were very helpful and particularly so because I didn't have to do them and my brother did

Those records were pointed at native English speakers learning to read.

Much less familiar with what's available in the French speaking world on this topic. It came on me today that "phonics" and "phonology" are related. Phonics is a less scary word.

There's the good old Joy of FSI French Phonology course which is meant for adults, but just as I could use the course for my older brother, wonder if our 11 year old would pick up on it if Mom or Dad started trying to learn French and used the FSI course. Wouldn't that be funny?

[smallwhite]

Thank you, everyone. I mostly get it now. I found this point of tiia's particularly enlightening:

... the student may be extremely unsure about the whole thing and they will try to do something. And in this case, I assume, it would first appear more logical to pronounce everything that's written.

*

I see Le Baron the 1 native English speaker saying French pronunciation is harder than English pronunciation,
and 6 non-native speakers of both English and French saying the opposite, that English pronunciation is harder.

Back when I was learning French, I gathered pronunciation rules from different sources, crunched them, then added to them myself. So my notes were really comprehensive. There were a lot of rules, but the rules covered almost everything, and only rarely do I meet a word I'm unsure about.

English pronunciation, OTOH, I've noticed rules since I was in kindie, had 40% of my education in-country and the rest mostly in English... yet I still keep encountering words I don't know how to pronounce. Mostly because I can't tell where the stress should go - ado, amok, havoc, superlative. I recently looked up (for the nth time) Hungary, Ursula, lessor. And it dawned on me to rhyme Polish with Poland and Poles not that long ago.

[Le Baron]

I see Le Baron the 1 native English speaker saying French pronunciation is harder than English pronunciation,
and 6 non-native speakers of both English and French say the opposite, that English pronunciation is harder.
(I'm with the latter).

Actually I grew up with a French-speaking mother. I don't personally have all that much trouble pronouncing French. I just see that other people do and see it more than people struggling with English pronunciation.

[jeff_lindqvist]

Late to the party.

There are people who have:

• bad accent despite a native teacher
• good accent because of a native teacher
• good accent despite a non-native teacher
• bad accent because of a non-native teacher

Some never learn (or: don't have a knack for accent, don't care etc.), some pick up what they hear (if it's a native accent - so much the better), some do what has to be done (e.g. practice, listen to target language), some have suboptimal learning environments (e.g. a non-native teacher with a bad accent, not enough exposure to the target language).

My English teachers were all Swedish (one had an amazing RP!), so were my teachers in German, Spanish, French, Russian (great accent!)... the only native speakers I've ever had have been Portuguese and Irish (at least some of them were native speakers, some weren't). In English/German/Spanish/French we had the usual two three 40-minute lessons per week. I cared nothing about accent until maybe 2006. Before that, I settled with "good enough". By the way, I still do. I just demand a bit more of this "good enough" nowadays.

There's a huge difference between being incomprehensible and being "good enough", even if you don't have access to a native teacher.

With the original post in mind, I'd think twice before comparing the level in English to the level in French. Exposure, experience, and motivation are just a few factors that will probably affect the desired result for a long time.

[luke]

I see Le Baron the 1 native English speaker saying French pronunciation is harder than English pronunciation, and 6 non-native speakers of both English and French say the opposite, that English pronunciation is harder.
(I'm with the latter).

Actually I grew up with a French-speaking mother. I don't personally have all that much trouble pronouncing French. I just see that other people do and see it more than people struggling with English pronunciation.

A few things come to mind.

It seems there are less rules in English pronunciation. That doesn't mean there isn't correctness, just that it's hard to systematize a rule set and many words have to be heard to know the proper pronunciation, especially when it gets down to where to place emphasis and which vowels become schwas, etc.

On the other hand, there seems to be more variance in "acceptable" English accents. In my mind, English is more geographically dispersed and accents from various regions and non-natives may have certain stereotypical earmarks, but if the accent and errors are not too grave, the accent is "acceptable".

French has the French behind it. They seem to come from a different perspective and there is less tolerance for bad accents and grammatical errors.

So I'm with Le Baron that French pronunciation is harder to get "right".

But I'm with the others that recognize that the writing system of English isn't overly helpful when it comes to pronunciation (even with an excellent courses on phonics).

I'm figuring the eleven year old probably recognizes that English is more useful and abundant in her world and it's as simple as that.

But you all may have better informed perspectives.

[Le Baron]

That's a good, balanced post. I can concede that English writing/spelling/pronunciation of certain words is a bit 'loose' and confusing. This bit however:

On the other hand, there seems to be more variance in "acceptable" English accents. In my mind, English is more geographically dispersed and accents from various regions and non-natives may have certain stereotypical earmarks, but if the accent and errors are not too grave, the accent is "acceptable".

French has the French behind it. They seem to come from a different perspective and there is less tolerance for bad accents and grammatical errors.

...nails it with regard to why people (or others appraising them) are content to say their English is good, but strive to emulate one ideal model of French. In England no-one really cares whether or not the accent is 'accurate'. English-speaking countries are so accustomed to hearing all sorts of accents and now recognising them - and the particular pronunciations, that it has become meaningless. Though there is talk of 'many Englishes' there isn't talk of 'many Frenches'. The most conservative opinion is that French outside France (and some regional French in France) is backward, incomprehensible or just plain wrong. Obviously the way people speak on the street contradicts much of this ideal, but this is not the model adopted for French as a foreign language.

There is the more recent ideal in English these days of acquiring a standard American-English accent, but it's not like this is demanded of a speaker before they can say they 'speak English' without native speakers frowning as though the foreigner is speaking Klingon.

[lowsocks]

I recently looked up (for the nth time) Hungary, Ursula, lessor.

I don't wish to distract from your original query. But in my dialect of English (southern Ontario, Canada), we would stress the first syllable of "Hungary", rather than the second. (On the other hand, in the adjective "Hungarian" we would place the stress on the second syllable.)

Looking at online pronunciation dictionaries, this seems to also hold in both the UK and the US. So perhaps it was just a typo in your post, and this is much ado about nothing

[smallwhite]

I recently looked up (for the nth time) Hungary, Ursula, lessor.

I don't wish to distract from your original query. But in my dialect of English (southern Ontario, Canada), we would stress the first syllable of "Hungary", rather than the second. (On the other hand, in the adjective "Hungarian" we would place the stress on the second syllable.)

Looking at online pronunciation dictionaries, this seems to also hold in both the UK and the US. So perhaps it was just a typo in your post, and this is much ado about nothing

Thank you. I was underlining the parts I have problem with, not necessarily the stressed syllable. I know it's "HunGArian" so I keep suspecting it's "HunGAry" (like "unwary"). Your post will probably help me remember now!

[Dragon27]

It's just "hungry" with additional schwə.

[mentecuerpo]

I can only speak from my own experience: Learning the sounds of the language is essential. I think it has to be done early on. Deliberate pronunciation drills, repeat after the teacher or after the audio. Correct pronunciation can be improved if working on it. Learn the new sounds of your new language that do not exist in your native language.

The problem is that many people don't work at pronunciation and carefully listening.

I read English like Spanish phonetics because my brain is biased towards Spanish, my native language, so I got the wrong pronunciations of English with a heavy Spanish accent, thanks to reading a lot at first, without learning the proper American English pronunciation. For example, when speaking English, I tend to substitute the five vowel sounds in Spanish for every 14 vowel sounds in English. So the vowel sounds in American English that do not exist is Salvadorian Spanish, no problem, my brain just produces the 5 Spanish vowel sounds every single time. Do you see the problem here?

I also see this in Americans learning German; they read the German words using English sounds as a decoder. They pronounce the written German words completely wrong with American English sounds. Very common to see.