Krashen and "Krashenite"

General discussion about learning languages
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Re: Krashen and "Krashenite"

Postby TopDog_IK » Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:32 pm

Dragon27 wrote:Nothing completely resembles natural speech except for natural speech itself.


Reality TV shows are about as close to natural speech as you are going to get with television. I'm currently watching a German show called Das Sommerhaus der Stars, which is basically a bunch of couples living in a farm house, talking all day. These shows tend to be nearly wall-to-wall dialogue. Such shows can boost comprehension for unpredictable extemporaneous speech.
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Re: Krashen and "Krashenite"

Postby Dragon27 » Mon Oct 03, 2022 5:40 pm

Cainntear wrote:I think the important point your missing is that Le Baron isn't trying to prove a universal hypothesis, but rather disprove one -- it only takes one counter-example to disprove a hypothesis, and the burden of proof is far lower.

Le Baron doesn't give a specific example, true, but the question you've got to ask yourself is this: "can I honestly say I have never heard anyone say this?"

If not, then Le Baron's point must stand.

I'm not sure there was a hypothesis explicitly stated in the original post the quote is from.

Le Baron wrote:Thats why it has 'for me' after the word 'tutor'.

Yeah, I saw that. I just wanted to point out how tangential this was to the anitarrc's critique of the indispensability of native tutors.

Le Baron wrote:It's based upon me having been learning languages for several decades and among other people and asking questions out of curiosity. Seeing it in books and TV programmes. It's almost a standard 'trope' that people learn the language, then meet the people who speak it in real time and go 'eh? How come it's somewhat incomprehensible' Have you never heard about that?

Yes, and the answer to the question is usually much simpler - they don't understand the language as well as they believe. Of course, the natural speech is much more difficult than nature documentaries or a carefully narrated audiobook. But not that much more difficult than TV shows and movies. If you watch a movie and 'understand' it by getting the gist from the action and people's behavior, rather than comprehending the actual speech, then you should curb your expectations of being able to understand the coveted 'natural speech' accordingly.

Le Baron wrote:The actual point I was making is not that this sort of input is 'useless', but that it might not be a good idea to just rely on bald input.

Bald input (pure Krashen's style, without any kind of help or even attempts to more closely analyze input, including books, which make it much easier to distinguish language units) is not something that is usually advocated by the promoters of input-heavy approaches nowadays. A good punching bag in discussion, though. Lying on the couch like a potato in front of a TV set and just letting the osmosis do its thing - everybody can get a few jabs at that.
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Re: Krashen and "Krashenite"

Postby rdearman » Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:02 pm

TopDog_IK wrote:
rdearman wrote:I have watched hundreds of hours of Korean and it hasn't worked for me. So yes, I for one would like to see some proof.


What is your current level of Korean? Were you watching with subtitles? If so, were they Korean subs? Were you focused on understanding the shows?

A negative 1000
Yes (mostly)
No
Yes

And now you're going to tell me because I watched with subtitles, this is why I didn't learn. I should have watched hundreds of hours of incomprehensible gibberish. Well, you'll be glad to know that I did that experiment as well. I watched hundreds (closer to thousands) of hours of incomprehensible gibberish which is Mandarin and I don't understand sweet FA. I am looking forward to reading your evidence though, because as an anecdotal sample size of one, I would say it is a complete load of utter bollocks.

The only two languages which I know well and operate functionally in were taught to me, using a textbook and a lot of patience, by a native speaker. Who then held many hours of conversation practice with me and corrected my speaking and pronunciation. She then moved me on to group classes when I was about B1 or B2 level so that I could interact with other students who were probably C1 or C2.

However, I did consume huge amounts of native material, podcasts, radio, books, TV, etc. But only after it had stopped being incomprehensible gibberish, and I could understand more than 50% of what was written or being said. So while I would like to believe the magic fairy named Krashen will grant my wishes with his magic TV, after multiple attempts and multiple languages, I can say with some certainty that 100% input of 100% gibberish gets you nowhere.

Besides, if it worked, why aren't people able to speak to whales? One of my friends listens to whale sounds every night at bedtime, and has done for over 20 years, and I don't see her down at the ocean speaking to Flipper the dolphin.
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Re: Krashen and "Krashenite"

Postby Chameleon » Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:08 pm

What does watching "incomprehensible gibberish" have to do with Krashen? Krashen advocates for comprehensible input.
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Re: Krashen and "Krashenite"

Postby Le Baron » Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:12 pm

Chameleon wrote:What does watching "incomprehensible gibberish" have to do with Krashen? Krashen advocates for comprehensible input.

I was about to say, it's less Krashen's fault than the Krashen-burns who invoke his name. In any case he mostly talks about reading. Nevertheless I think rdearman's point still stands. I'm sick of people pretending they learned languages merely by watching hours of Netflix, it's complete bollocks.
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Re: Krashen and "Krashenite"

Postby rdearman » Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:13 pm

Chameleon wrote:What does watching "incomprehensible gibberish" have to do with Krashen? Krashen advocates for comprehensible input.

If you start watching a show, and you have zero vocabulary, then the entire show is incomprehensible gibberish. You have to have something to turn incomprehensible gibberish into comprehensible input. Hence, my question, why can't my friend understand dolphins and whales?

I+1 is a crap formula if i=0.
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Re: Krashen and "Krashenite"

Postby Chameleon » Mon Oct 03, 2022 8:27 pm

rdearman wrote:If you start watching a show, and you have zero vocabulary, then the entire show is incomprehensible gibberish. You have to have something to turn incomprehensible gibberish into comprehensible input. Hence, my question, why can't my friend understand dolphins and whales?

I+1 is a crap formula if i=0.


"You have to have something to turn incomprehensible gibberish into comprehensible input."

Yeah, lots of time on lower level stuff. Hundreds of hours at least, if not over 1000 hours for a language like Korean.
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Re: Krashen and "Krashenite"

Postby LupCenușiu » Mon Oct 03, 2022 10:01 pm

Chameleon wrote:
rdearman wrote:If you start watching a show, and you have zero vocabulary, then the entire show is incomprehensible gibberish. You have to have something to turn incomprehensible gibberish into comprehensible input. Hence, my question, why can't my friend understand dolphins and whales?

I+1 is a crap formula if i=0.


"You have to have something to turn incomprehensible gibberish into comprehensible input."

Yeah, lots of time on lower level stuff. Hundreds of hours at least, if not over 1000 hours for a language like Korean.


So, basically you suggest watching Peppa Pig and similar content for hundreds of hours, if not thousands. Just to get a foot in the door. I think I'd like a bit of whatever philosopher's stone the people embracing this idea are using, because as a mere mortal with a pretty short life span, I fail to see the hidden logic behind spending hundreds of hours on content that you probably don't like that much anyway, only to reach a level achievable in a fraction of that time through a diversified approach.
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Re: Krashen and "Krashenite"

Postby Cainntear » Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:07 am

Chameleon wrote:What does watching "incomprehensible gibberish" have to do with Krashen? Krashen advocates for comprehensible input.

rdearman was not responding to Krashen, but to TopDog_IK.

TopDog_IK has been advocating right here in this thread just sitting in front of a TV for 800 hours before doing anything else.

You're implying rdearman is strawmanning, when you've inadvertently shifted the goalposts by not following the thread.

Chameleon wrote:
rdearman wrote:If you start watching a show, and you have zero vocabulary, then the entire show is incomprehensible gibberish. You have to have something to turn incomprehensible gibberish into comprehensible input. Hence, my question, why can't my friend understand dolphins and whales?

I+1 is a crap formula if i=0.


"You have to have something to turn incomprehensible gibberish into comprehensible input."

Yeah, lots of time on lower level stuff. Hundreds of hours at least, if not over 1000 hours for a language like Korean.

OK, but what is the "lower level stuff"? There is nothing* available for natives that is comprehensible to learners, because native speakers don't learn their language from TV, but from one-on-one interaction*.

*Caveat: there are some preschool programmes that will embed flashcard style learning of certain vocabulary concepts -- typically colours, numbers, animals and fruit. However, language is not just vocabulary (as I'm sure we all accept) and when it comes down to it, flashcards don't magically switch from being wrong and ineffective to being right and effective just because they're in a piece of "authentic content". Interactive flashcards and app are more effective by virtue of being... well... interactive.

The only TV material I can think of that qualifies as comprehensible input for a total beginner is self-evidently less useful than a non-TV alternative.

Is it not therefore fair to say that TopDog_IK's TV idea does not offer comprehensible input as Krashen (or any other educated person) would define it?

So in the context of this thread, what rdearman wrote is correct and useful, right?
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Re: Krashen and "Krashenite"

Postby Cainntear » Tue Oct 04, 2022 7:30 am

TopDog_IK wrote:
Dragon27 wrote:Nothing completely resembles natural speech except for natural speech itself.


Reality TV shows are about as close to natural speech as you are going to get with television. I'm currently watching a German show called Das Sommerhaus der Stars, which is basically a bunch of couples living in a farm house, talking all day. These shows tend to be nearly wall-to-wall dialogue. Such shows can boost comprehension for unpredictable extemporaneous speech.

Boost, yes. But it's a limited effect.

Whether they are as a close as you're going to get to real conversation on TV is different to considering them the same real conversation -- much of what goes into real conversation is still missing... Including half the conversation, as everything's been edited down considerably.

It's lacking context, they're not modifying their speech to accommodate you and you can stop them and ask for clarification.

It's helpful in learning to cope with conversation to some extent, certainly, but it's not all that much like conversation and it's definitely no substitute for it.
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