Krashen and "Krashenite"

General discussion about learning languages
uncertaingoblin
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Re: Krashen and "Krashenite"

Postby uncertaingoblin » Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:53 pm

Cainntear wrote:
uncertaingoblin wrote:RE: intellectual snobbery in language learning (great way to put it, btw) there's nothing imagined about it. The hobby is plagued by it. I'm a bit surprised anyone would claim there's anything "imagined" about that.

I didn’t say it didn’t exist. You weren’t merely claiming it existed — you were accusing most of the members this forum of being intellectual snobs and gatekeepers, not to mention an entire branch of academia.

The express goal all of us here have is to help others learn language more quickly, efficiently bind enjoyably. This is also the goal of the thousands of SLA researchers who look at language in all is complexity.

You have insulted us and them.

If we have to choose which is the harsher gatekeeper, oversimplification or overcomplication, I am again shocked that anyone would believe that is oversimplification.

One of my great bugbears (as regulars will attest) is when insufficient detailed advice is given, learners fail, and because they did what they were told, they take it as a personal failing — “I must be a bad learner". I talk about the evil of “blaming the learner” a lot. If a method leads to frequent failure to learn, it's the method's fault, not the learner's.
Oversimplification leaves lots of scope for failure and no way for the learner to sort themselves out when they fail.

I'm not Krashen. I do not believe there is only one way to learn a language. What I believe is this:
Language learning is deeply personal and tied to identity. People must search not only for the language they genuinely want to learn but also for the method. I think the way we truly learn languages is when we find a way that we enjoy engaging with the language; maybe that's input for some, and the deliberate study of grammar for others. For whatever that's worth, there it is.

Then why insult people who want to explore the strengths and weaknesses of that variety?


Wow. Quite a reaction - In order to provoke such an unhinged rant, I must have unknowingly called you out for what you are. We can just ignore each other from here on out. Good luck.
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Re: Krashen and "Krashenite"

Postby Cainntear » Fri Sep 09, 2022 7:58 pm

TopDog_IK wrote:rdearman, this seems to be an argument to delay grammar study until fairly late in the process? Is that fair to say? IE, children are more or less already conversationally fluent by the time they reach grammar school. This is roughly what Kaufmann and to some extent Krashen are recommending.

As others have said: only if you assume first and second language acquisition are the same thing.

I believe the underlying processes and mechanisms are visibly different enough that there is no reason to assume that the superficial activities should be the same, so only empirical evidence works for me.


TopDog_IK wrote:There is a substantial difference in trying to learn grammar for a new language on day one vs when one already has high comprehension -- a big, big difference.

Yes, and a major part of that is the concept of a "fossilised error". Late grammar aims to undo years of regarding and repeating the same error, just by talking about it; it doesn't seem to work very well.
Early grammar aims instead to make learners understand what they're saying and why, so that they don't build these hard-to-fix habits in their language model.
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Re: Krashen and "Krashenite"

Postby TopDog_IK » Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:02 pm

Boy, when you show up as a new person to this forum, you better be ready for battle. :shock: :lol:
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Re: Krashen and "Krashenite"

Postby TopDog_IK » Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:06 pm

Cainntear wrote:As others have said: only if you assume first and second language acquisition are the same thing.


I doubt anyone here thinks these are the same. That's a strawman. What most people think is that there are some similarities, that there is non-trivial overlap.
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Re: Krashen and "Krashenite"

Postby Cainntear » Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:17 pm

TopDog_IK wrote:
Le Baron wrote:
TopDog_IK wrote:True, but presumably you don't have a high comprehension for the language to which you are attempting to apply these grammar lessons. That's a major difference, no?


No. It makes no difference. The learning of grammar doesn't have to wait for 'high comprehension'. Why would it?


For the reasons Kaufmann said: it's easier and more meaningful to apply grammar principles to a language with which are you are familiar than to apply grammar principles to thin air.

You do not and cannot produce or understand language without applying grammar principles. The question here is when you should have conscious command of them.

The main benefit of grammar instruction in L1 isn't too improve our speaking, but to improve our writing. Even if we have a subconscious command of language that allows us to speak, writing is a slower, more conscious process where we make deliberate decisions on which word to put where.

That's a very different goal from one of trying to change the existing unconscious model used in speaking. The underlying nature of the activities are radically different, so there's no reason to assume that the superficial form should be the same.
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Re: Krashen and "Krashenite"

Postby Cainntear » Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:22 pm

uncertaingoblin wrote:Wow. Quite a reaction - In order to provoke such an unhinged rant, I must have unknowingly called you out for what you are.

So you're saying being annoyed at accusations proves the accusation true?
People aren't annoyed when people say things about them that aren't true?
You know full well that that's not the case.
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Re: Krashen and "Krashenite"

Postby Cainntear » Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:24 pm

TopDog_IK wrote:
Cainntear wrote:As others have said: only if you assume first and second language acquisition are the same thing.


I doubt anyone here thinks these are the same. That's a strawman. What most people think is that there are some similarities, that there is non-trivial overlap.

Well I didn't say that you thought it, just that it only follows under that assumption. If we take that assumption away, we need some other reason to assume it applies in this situation.
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Re: Krashen and "Krashenite"

Postby Kraut » Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:40 pm

When immersion becomes drowning:

from Stanislas Dehaene's book "Apprendre"
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Re: Krashen and "Krashenite"

Postby Le Baron » Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:49 pm

TopDog_IK wrote:
Le Baron wrote:It's not to 'thin air'. It's to the progressively learned language.


You are definitely trying to apply grammar lessons to "thin air" if you are studying grammar on day one of learning a new language.

No you are not. You are learning the language. When you start on day one you learn some words and some sentences and there may be a note or two about how such a language does certain things in its sentences as a general rule.

That's learning grammar within the language at the same time.
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Re: Krashen and "Krashenite"

Postby einzelne » Fri Sep 09, 2022 9:02 pm

TopDog_IK wrote:You are definitely trying to apply grammar lessons to "thin air" if you are studying grammar on day one of learning a new language.


Have your ever opened up a textbook? "Thin air"? What does it even mean? Every time you have a grammar point in a book, it will always be illustrated with a concrete example, sometimes two. And you will have lots of examples in other texts and activities of a lesson.

Yes, I study grammar on day one. You open a typical self-study book like Assimil and there will be grammar points on every single page.
Actually, nowadays, I often study grammar on day zero — I read a short grammar reference book just to know what kind of grammar forms you need to be aware of. That allows you to jump to unadapted materials as quick as possible.
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