Efficiency of Extensive and Repetitive Rereading?

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Mr Dastardly
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Efficiency of Extensive and Repetitive Rereading?

Postby Mr Dastardly » Sun May 30, 2021 5:18 pm

Hello everyone - hope you're all well and enjoying your language-learning!

So I just finished intensively reading the French translation of Harari's 21 Lessons for the 21st Century - it took many an hour indeed, but I enjoyed the process and certainly gained much from it. I read some of the early chapters multiple times, but most of the latter chapters just once intensively. Probably 3-5% of the lemmas in the early chapters are not automatically recognised, and around 10% in the latter chapters.

(if you're wondering, I am also working my way through Jenson's "La Méthode Nature", Kurbegov's "French Grammar Drills (almost finished), and Stillman's "The Ultimate French Verb review and Practice")

My question is: at my upper-beginner/lower-intermediate level, do you think it would it be a more efficacious use of time for the next few months to extensively and repetitively reread Harari's text that I just finished, or to just move on to intensively reading my next project (probably translations of Sapiens, Homo Deus, or The Silk Roads [or perhaps The Philosopher's Stone or La Rapport de Brodeck])? nb I'm quite happy to reread 21 Lessons multiple times, so boredom isn't a concern. I'm just not quite sure what will benefit my acquisition more - extensive but repetitive rereading of an extended text that I enjoy, or exposure to novel material that's an intensive grind?

Many thanks indeed for any suggestions!
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Re: Efficiency of Extensive and Repetitive Rereading?

Postby Lianne » Sun May 30, 2021 5:27 pm

We might have very different experiences, because personally I burn out very quickly on intensive reading. Every now and then I'll do a few pages of it, because I know there are benefits, but I find it exhausting and it takes me FOREVER because suddenly I'm doubting my knowledge and looking up words I already get the gist of.

So, for me, I've found extensive reading much more useful. I can do a lot of it without getting burned out, and I've noticed my comprehension pretty steadily improving as I do it. Even if you enjoy intensive reading, I do recommend also doing some extensive reading as well, just for the sheer amount of input you get from it.

I would also extensively read new texts, not just the same one again and again. Then you're also getting that exposure to new material.
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Re: Efficiency of Extensive and Repetitive Rereading?

Postby Iversen » Sun May 30, 2021 5:33 pm

I don't fancy reading the same books over and over again, although that has happened with a few non fiction classics, like two by the British psychiatrist Oliver Sachs and my Italian guide to Syria. I have however found out that my old intensive study texts are excellent as goodnight reading just before I fall asleep. I rarely feel the need to look anything up, which would be a nuisance, they are short, and I get a free repetition of the topical vocabulary of each text.
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Re: Efficiency of Extensive and Repetitive Rereading?

Postby tomos1729 » Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:43 am

honestly, i think re-reading is key. sometimes i even think it should be "obvious" - if i read a sentence, make some language "gains", then *clearly* i should consolidate that to make sure i really do learn it. consolidation is obviously a vital part of any actual learning process.

however, it's boring. so i almost never do it. i'm just very aware i should do it before complaining about my lack of progress :D
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Re: Efficiency of Extensive and Repetitive Rereading?

Postby luke » Sun Jul 18, 2021 10:21 am

Mr Dastardly wrote:So I just finished intensively reading the French translation of Harari's 21 Lessons for the 21st Century - it took many an hour indeed, but I enjoyed the process and certainly gained much from it. I read some of the early chapters multiple times, but most of the latter chapters just once intensively. Probably 3-5% of the lemmas in the early chapters are not automatically recognised, and around 10% in the latter chapters.

My question is: at my upper-beginner/lower-intermediate level, do you think it would it be a more efficacious use of time for the next few months to extensively and repetitively reread Harari's text that I just finished, or to just move on to intensively reading my next project? nb I'm quite happy to reread 21 Lessons multiple times, so boredom isn't a concern.

Since your first pass through the book was intensive AND boredom isn't a concern, I'd go for it again.

There's definitely something to be said for consolidation, confidence building, review, and the fluency impact of going through it again.

You don't have to commit to multiple re-readings now. Just start with one.

When you do turn you attention to your next Harari book, you have the benefit of the same author and translator in French. Also, your other studies will have progressed and with the next book you'll notice how much you progressed, comparing where you started with first book and then how much easier the second book is. (Second book will be more challenging than the re-read of the first book, but not more challenging than the first read of the first book).
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Re: Efficiency of Extensive and Repetitive Rereading?

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Sun Jul 18, 2021 3:25 pm

In another thread (just one week ago), s_allard wrote:
As old-timers around here know, I believe in quality rather than quantity. Reading one 400-page book in Spanish about twice, including reading entire pages aloud to on-line tutors, did it for me. That one book contained nearly all the Spanish grammar and a huge chunk of the vocabulary that I ever needed. All the reading afterwards gave me more vocabulary.
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Re: Efficiency of Extensive and Repetitive Rereading?

Postby Beli Tsar » Sun Jul 18, 2021 3:33 pm

What about revisiting it via audiobook? It always seems helpful to revisit a text in a different medium, and it helps both listening and speed of comprehension into the bargain. Meanwhile, you could read something new.
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Re: Efficiency of Extensive and Repetitive Rereading?

Postby Lawyer&Mom » Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:14 pm

I don’t reread in French. New french books are too easily available to me. I would absolutely reread in something like Irish where books are limited and/or hard to obtain.
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Re: Efficiency of Extensive and Repetitive Rereading?

Postby jeffers » Mon Jul 19, 2021 8:56 am

I an a believer in the benefits of repeated reading, but it has to be something that you would enjoy reading again. Since the OP says he wouldn't mind re-reading 21 Lessons then I think it would make sense to do so.

Since a few types of reading have been mentioned on this thread, I thought it might be useful to lay them out, as I understand them at least.

Repeated reading is reading the same books again. 8 or 9 years ago I heard a report on BBC radio about a study in which some primary students were given five different books to read, and others were asked to read the same book five times. All of the students were given a vocabulary test (based on the books I believe) before and after the reading. The result was that those students who read the same book five times learned "significantly" more new words than those who read five different books.

Extensive reading is reading large amounts of text, also called free reading. I think the focus is more on quantity than variety, so the definition of extensive reading could encompass the other reading methods mentioned here except perhaps intensive reading. Paul Nation has done several studies of vocabulary acquisition through extensive reading, and has also calculated the number of words need to be read to encounter words from various frequency bands sufficient times to learn them. If I remember right, the average number of encounters needed is 12 or 13, but he also points out that quality of encounter matters as well. Wheras in repeated reading you encounter a word again in the identical context, with extensive reading you encounter words in new contexts, deepening understanding. Nation allows for the use of a dictionary with extensive reading, alongside guessing from context. His writing also focuses on comprehensible input and the use of graded readers. An example article from 2015: https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1059712.pdf, and a 23 page booklet that I barely skimmed: http://www.readingoceans-empreser.com/ComData/files/Paul%20Nation%20%20Rob%20Waring's%20ER%20Booklet_eng.pdf

Intensive reading is when you are basically studying the text you are reading. Looking up every unknown word, checking the grammar on unknown forms, looking up unknown idioms, etc, and possibly making notes or flashcards to study. Technically (I think) intensive reading should also include doing "activities" with the text, e.g. making summaries, mind-maps, putting events into chronological order, etc, but my guess is that self-learners rarely do these sorts of activities. If done wrong there is a risk that this could become a great chore with very little benefit. I remember sessions where I spent an hour on a single sentence but didn't feel like I learnt very much looking at all the words in isolation. One solution to this problem would be to start by reading a full section, full paragraph or full page without looking anything up, then going through it intensively as needed. Intensive reading often seems to be contrasted with "reading for pleasure", but many people enjoy doing it.

Narrow reading could be considered a sort of half-way house between repeated and extensive reading. It is when you read a lot of books in a series, or by the same author, or on the same topic. So reading the Harry Potter series, or Le Petit Nicolas. Like with repeated reading, you will get a lot of common vocabulary and idiomatic style from book to book. I would think that doing something like reading the news daily would be a form of narrow reading. The Case for Narrow Reading: http://www.sdkrashen.com/content/articles/2004_case_for_narrow_reading_lang_mag.pdf

I don't think any of these reading methods are better or worse, rather I think the greatest benefit would come from a combination of the methods. However, the real issue is whether you enjoy what you are doing, because in this context the only bad method is the method that makes you quit.
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Re: Efficiency of Extensive and Repetitive Rereading?

Postby luke » Mon Jul 19, 2021 10:14 am

jeffers wrote:I am a believer in the benefits of repeated reading, but it has to be something that you would enjoy reading again.

Repeated reading is reading the same books again. 8 or 9 years ago I heard a report on BBC radio about a study in which some primary students were given five different books to read, and others were asked to read the same book five times. All of the students were given a vocabulary test (based on the books I believe) before and after the reading. The result was that those students who read the same book five times learned "significantly" more new words than those who read five different books.

That's very interesting. Makes me feel good about doing what you do.

jeffers wrote:Narrow reading is when you read a lot of books in a series, or by the same author, or on the same topic. So reading the Harry Potter series, or Le Petit Nicolas. Like with repeated reading, you will get a lot of common vocabulary and idiomatic style from book to book.

I don't think any of these reading methods are better or worse, rather I think the greatest benefit would come from a combination of the methods. However, the real issue is whether you enjoy what you are doing, because in this context the only bad method is the method that makes you quit.

I like narrow reading too. Find something you like and do more of it.

With the OP, a re-read or two makes sense to me. Then branching out to other works by the same author.

I'm using or planning to use this approach with Gabriel García Márquez. I'm still in the repeat stage with Cien años de soledad. When I've started dipping into his other works, they're still harder than I'd like at this point, so I just go back to Cien años de soledad again. Each time I understand the author's argument better. It's still getting easier, and with that, often more pleasurable. Later, I'll look at other books by the same author again.

The other approach is reading easier stuff, which is part of extensive reading. This is very helpful and is generally more fun if you find interesting things to read.

Reminds me of one other thing I read about adults and vocabulary acquisition. Wikipedia surfers generally learned more words than book surfers. Thinking one of the differences here is that the learner can follow the interest of the moment, which is sometimes easier and more fun than reading a book. Assuming the person who presented this information was presenting similar "time on task", but even if they weren't, and it's just that Wiki surfers spend more "time on task", then it's still a valid discovery.
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