r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

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Re: r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

Postby IronMike » Fri May 28, 2021 7:30 pm

My time at the Russian Basic Course at DLI changed when I finally stopped trying to figure out "why do they do that?" and just accept that that is the way the Russians say/decline/conjugate/pronounce it.
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Re: r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

Postby Cavesa » Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:01 pm

1. People always imagine the nice situations with the natives. Well, that's not always the case.

1A. You'll find many people, who will humiliate you, who will try to take advantage of you in a discussion, who will try to present you as stupid to a third party, to win an argument (and with it sometimes money), who will be annoying, who will accuse you of being incompetent, and so on. Being able to stand your ground in such situations, and choosing the right register, and communicating well enough, that's much harder than in the nice situations. But success in such moments is very sweet, trust me.

1B. You will also discover a lot of things you won't like about the culture. No matter which language and culture you choose. You can never learn the language of Goethe without the language of Hitler, it's simply impossible. So, you will have to deal with stuff like disappointment, cultural shock, or ethical problems. Inform yourself as soon as possible, so that you choose a language and culture that is well compatible with you. But you'll hate some parts of it anyways, the natives just don't show them to the average tourists normally.

1C. People (both natives and people around you) will doubt you all the time. You can either not care, or simply objectively prove them wrong, or both. But if you let their doubts and discouragement, or even bullying get to you, it won't be pleasant.

2. Sometimes, the best shortcut is simply not taking a shortcut. Not avoiding some unpleasant or boring activities will help you get to thr fun earlier and more efficiently. Either you can pretend having fun with random beginner YT videos for several years, or you can just complete the beginner coursebook in half a year and move on to the more fun stuff.

3.Talent exists. IQ affects learning. Various talents (such as being naturally sociable, or having good memory, good logical thinking, musical ear) will make some parts of language learning easier. Don't get me wrong, IQ or talent in general are not the most important thing in learning of course. You can succeed even if you think you are not talented (the way schools make people lose confidence is horrible). Vast majority of people is able to learn a language. But it is simply naive and wrongly egalitarian to pretend that there are no inherent differences between learners. They exist. This truth should lead people to search for what methods and tools are the best for them, and to pride in the achievements they have been able to reach. Not to envy and bullying of the "more gifted" learners. Chances are, that the learner you envy struggles with something else much more than you anyways.
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Re: r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

Postby basica » Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:21 pm

Cavesa wrote:You'll find many people, who will humiliate you...


Not really the point you were making, but made me think of my recent experience with Tagalog; I haven't experienced this with other languages I've used but I've had several Tagalog speakers laugh at me when I spoke with a bad accent or with bad grammar or what have you. The first time it happened to me it was kinda jarring because the very same people are so self conscious about their English you'd think if they felt that way about their English it'd be kinda obvious someone else would feel the same about using their language. I've got a thick skin so it didn't bother me per se, but I would be careful if you're on the sensitive side and want to learn a Filipino language.
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Re: r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

Postby Cavesa » Wed Jun 02, 2021 1:31 pm

basica wrote:
Cavesa wrote:You'll find many people, who will humiliate you...


Not really the point you were making, but made me think of my recent experience with Tagalog; I haven't experienced this with other languages I've used but I've had several Tagalog speakers laugh at me when I spoke with a bad accent or with bad grammar or what have you. The first time it happened to me it was kinda jarring because the very same people are so self conscious about their English you'd think if they felt that way about their English it'd be kinda obvious someone else would feel the same about using their language. I've got a thick skin so it didn't bother me per se, but I would be careful if you're on the sensitive side and want to learn a Filipino language.


I think you're expanding on my point very well. Learners often imagine only the pleasant experiences, we are not being prepared for the various kinds of unpleasant ones. (And people are very creative, when it comes to being an a..hole) That's the simple truth. And many are surprised, or even shocked and discouraged.

It's important to not idealize language learning or anything else. Enjoy the good things and prepare for survival of the bad ones.
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Re: r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

Postby iguanamon » Wed Jun 02, 2021 2:14 pm

basica wrote:I've had several Tagalog speakers laugh at me when I spoke with a bad accent or with bad grammar or what have you.

Yes, many people in L2 cultures are not accustomed to hearing their language spoken by a non-native... even big languages like Spanish in places like Mexico or Honduras. Small languages like Haitian Creole and Lesser Antilles French Creole, the speakers have probably never heard a non-native speak their language. Some people may take offense thinking you are being condescending to them believing they can't speak English.

It can be useful to develop a "language island" explaining that you are learning their language to show respect and to learn more about their culture. "I know I don't speak well right now, but I am trying to get better" goes a long way in these situations. My experience has been that this can turn laughers into sympathizers and helpers... not all the time, but more often than not.
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Re: r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

Postby tungemål » Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:43 pm

Cavesa wrote:...the way schools make people lose confidence is horrible...

How do schools make people lose confidence? Since I work as a teacher in a school I'm interested in this question.
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Re: r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

Postby Cavesa » Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:45 pm

tungemål wrote:
Cavesa wrote:...the way schools make people lose confidence is horrible...

How do schools make people lose confidence? Since I work as a teacher in a school I'm interested in this question.


In various ways. Some teachers like to humiliate the students, shout at them for mistakes, humiliate them in the eyes of classmates on purpose, and so on. A lot of the people in schools shouldn't teach at all. And many are not bad at first, but they change with their first burn out or another such problem.

And even if a teacher is kind and mature enough to not do that, the school system is very often not encouraging, but rather punishing for any failures. Many students simply look for the mistake at their end (whether or not there is a mistake in them) and come to the "I am simply not talented at this or that" conclusion, which can last for a life time.

The third reason is the lack of guidance on how to learn efficiently, and how to pick a learning style for you. Either you manage to get it just from the way the teacher uses, or you miraculously find a way to self study, or (the most common option) you just give up and accept being too stupid to succeed at something. (Plus many language teachers are objectively not good, they do the job just because they are incapable of getting a better paid one, and they blame their incompetence on either the students, or the difficulty of the language, or both. It's very common for example in the French teachers in my country, I've heard the same "symptoms" described far too many times. Curiously, the German teachers seem to do no such a thing.)

It's a bit weird of you to ask such a question, as if you didn't believe me. It's a well known phenomenon. It may not be that well researched in case of langauges, but it is well known that school is one of the key factors in discouraging girls from the stem fields, exactly by destroying their confidence through various means. If you convince the person that success is impossible for them, you'll create a self fulfilling prophecy.
.............
Which leads me to another hard truth:

4. You are the only person responsible for your success. Nobody can learn it for you, and you'll often need to find your own path against somebody else's advice. You also cannot tie your progress to any language exchange partners, private tutors, or even a foreign partner. If you want to succeed, it's primarily about you.
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Re: r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

Postby Mr Dastardly » Wed Jun 02, 2021 9:04 pm

tungemål wrote:
Cavesa wrote:...the way schools make people lose confidence is horrible...

How do schools make people lose confidence? Since I work as a teacher in a school I'm interested in this question.


I'll jump on this one! I am a "bad student", although I have earnt degrees from Cambridge. I hated school from the very beginning - I just wanted to do my own thing and for everyone to leave me alone, I couldn't understand the point of education and, most of all, adults could not provide a convincing explanation for why they rightfully commanded natural authority over me, despite my many inquiries. My despondency, lack of inspiration to do boring schoolwork, and refusal to submit to unjustified authority in class lead to me being labelled "disruptive" and "incapable". As self-fulfilling prophecies often go - and as an impressionable child - I came to believe them, and dropped out of school with no qualifications.

Fast-forward a few years and some traumas including losing my parents, I came across a big dusty book at a friend's house called "Capital" by some guy called Marx. After grinding through the first 20 pages or so, I asked my friend's parents if I could borrow the book, and I went on to carefully decipher Volume 1. It was a defining endeavour - I realised a deep technical interest in understanding the world, signed up to an Access to Higher Education Course to attain qualifications required to go to university, and set my sights on Cambridge, much to the amusement of everyone around me. After two interviews and an entrance exam, I was offered a place to study politics and social sciences at Cambridge, on the condition I received top grades in all subjects in the Access Course.

Despite having graduated from Cambridge with first class honours, I encountered a number of problems at university reminiscent of my younger years. Again, I just wanted to be left alone - this time to complete my work and prepare for exams at my own pace - again, I had problems with authority, and again I was labelled "difficult" and many of my professors thought I was going to fail because I deviated from their precious curriculum and the "Cambridge way".

So here I am, despite having some clear strengths, some pretty pieces of paper to prove it, and an ability to command an obvious degree of luck, I am utterly under-confident when it comes to fitting in to rules-based orders, and it makes me feel like a burden and like I don't belong. Don't get me wrong, I have much going for me and the glass is 90% full most of the time, but the idea that I am "disruptive" and "difficult" is etched deeply into my subconscious (dare I say) and has become reflexive. School taught me I was stupid and an outcast. Sheer luck brought "Capital" into my path; had lady luck not struck on that occasion, the former of the two suppositions would likely still hold in my mind. Cambridge reinforced my feeling of being an outcast. I hope to challenge this latter element of socialisation one day, but to my mind good teaching involves inspiring and realising the less obvious strengths of clueless kids who don't know up from down, not teaching them that they are "stupid" or "difficult".

So there you go, there is one story of how school can instil insecurity.
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Re: r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

Postby lusan » Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:47 pm

Cavesa wrote:
4. You are the only person responsible for your success. Nobody can learn it for you, and you'll often need to find your own path against somebody else's advice. You also cannot tie your progress to any language exchange partners, private tutors, or even a foreign partner. If you want to succeed, it's primarily about you.

Nicely said!
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Re: r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

Postby lusan » Thu Jun 03, 2021 1:58 pm

Mr Dastardly wrote:
tungemål wrote:
Cavesa wrote:...the way schools make people lose confidence is horrible...

How do schools make people lose confidence? Since I work as a teacher in a school I'm interested in this question.


I'll jump on this one! I am a "bad student", although I have earnt degrees from Cambridge. I hated school from the very beginning - I just wanted to do my own thing and for everyone to leave me alone, I couldn't understand the point of education and, most of all, adults could not provide a convincing explanation for why they rightfully commanded natural authority over me, despite my many inquiries. My despondency, lack of inspiration to do boring schoolwork, and refusal to submit to unjustified authority in class lead to me being labelled "disruptive" and "incapable". As self-fulfilling prophecies often go - and as an impressionable child - I came to believe them, and dropped out of school with no qualifications.
............................

So there you go, there is one story of how school can instil insecurity.


Thanks. Your comments brought back long gone memories. I remember that in elementary school, 2nd grade, I concluded that my own education was up to me..... so I used to escape and hide in the library.... I was the only kid there.... teachers gave me special permission to make the library my home... later on, in high school, I followed two study paths: the school and my own.... school was way too easy and boring. I need more more more... I am 66 and questa sete is still with me... Another language? Maybe. But a very rare one!
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