r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

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Re: r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

Postby Querneus » Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:35 pm

Cavesa wrote:It's a bit weird of you to ask such a question, as if you didn't believe me. It's a well known phenomenon.

Depends on what you read, to be honest it's the first time I hear about it too. It made intuitive sense to me when you first said it, but your elaboration on it was nice and interesting.
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Re: r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

Postby tungemål » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:29 pm

I prefer to avoid discussions like these, but now I feel compelled to defend teachers as a profession, since some people seem to have had bad experiences with school. Even if I'm "only" a music teacher.

Cavesa wrote:In various ways. Some teachers like to humiliate the students, shout at them for mistakes, humiliate them in the eyes of classmates on purpose, and so on.

I completely agree. That is unacceptable behaviour, especially for a teacher. A teacher should always be encouraging and positive

And even if a teacher is kind and mature enough to not do that, the school system is very often not encouraging, but rather punishing for any failures. Many students simply look for the mistake at their end (whether or not there is a mistake in them) and come to the "I am simply not talented at this or that" conclusion, which can last for a life time.

Agree, it is important to avoid the feeling of failure, but it can be difficult because of a reason I mention later.

The third reason is the lack of guidance on how to learn efficiently, and how to pick a learning style for you.

Again I agree, and believe me, how to learn and learning styles are discussed in schools. It is a challenge to optimise for everyone since often you have a class with 30 students and that is too many to be able to differentiate between the students, who are often very different in how they learn and what level they're on. Ideally one should have one teacher for each pupil.

It's a bit weird of you to ask such a question, as if you didn't believe me.

No, it's not weird, it was an honest question, since you casually put out that statement. Now you're doing what you critise your teachers for: trying to humiliate and ridicule me for asking a question.

Mr Dastardly wrote:I'll jump on this one! I am a "bad student", although I have earnt degrees from Cambridge. I hated school from the very beginning - I just wanted to do my own thing and for everyone to leave me alone, I couldn't understand the point of education and, most of all, adults could not provide a convincing explanation for why they rightfully commanded natural authority over me, despite my many inquiries.
...

Thanks for your story. It seems you did well, with a degree from Cambridge, despite some bad experiences. Maybe you're very independent minded, or just didn't feel at home in a school environment.

However I don't see that you say anything about how education could've been better, unless you mean that we should just close all schools. Leave the pupils alone? Let them do their own thing? I know enough about my pupils (I teach 16-18 age group) that if we just leave them alone, 95% will do nothing.
Edit2: I take that back - I actually don't view pupils so negatively. I just mean, most would probably not study all the subjects they now have to get into at school. That is just how humans are - we are naturally lazy. Only a small percentage are independent and driven anough that they could structure themselves and learn everything by themselves.


I think school before university should present a broad range of subjects, but in a way it doesn't matter what those subjects are. School is an exercise in how to learn, and a taste of a different fields and (ideally) different ways of working. So that maybe one of those subjects might catch the interest and passion of a pupil who will continue with it more in-depth later.
Edit: I forgot to mention that one important purpose of school is as a meeting place between the pupils, and a place where they can learn cooperation and how to function as individuals in a society.

One reason I thought people would mention: In schools we normally have to grade pupils, and I'm often conflicted about this. It can create feelings of failure. In my school we grade the level the pupil has reached. The effort the pupil has put in, is (or should be) irrelevant in the grading process. It's tough to grade pupils who worked hard, but didn't reach a high level, with a low grade. Especially since it's very easy for some pupils who just coast along, working very little but still achieving good grades.

I agree with the sentiment that one should take responsibility for ones own learning, but it's hard to get pupils to realise that. They're normally waiting for instructions on what to do. I can't force anyone to learn anything - the pupils have to take some initiative, especially the age group I'm teaching. Actually, even if it can be hard to remember in the day-to-day grind, my philosophy is to try to inspire and guide the pupils, not only to teach them a lot of facts, because they need an inner drive if they are to become good at anything. With the right drive it is easy to learn.
Last edited by tungemål on Thu Jun 10, 2021 6:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

Postby Xenops » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:49 pm

I think it's fair to say that different teachers and different cultures will produce different schooling environments. I went to a public school in the early 2000's, and classes varied in quality. In general, I would say the teaching I received was good to exceptional. My Spanish classes and my advanced-placement English classes were the exceptional ones, and they encouraged me to continue. The negative class experience was my advanced art class, where the teacher had unrealistic expectations of the students, and thus I avoided art for at least 3-4 years.

Interestingly, it was the Spanish classes in the community college that made me lose interest in the language--another case of a bad instructor. Conversely, my biology and math instructors were phenomenal, and it's because of them that I entered the bio-medical field.

In my experience, some teachers are bad, some are fantastic.

Back to the reactions of native speakers, I once tried to send a message in Japanese to a friend of mine, saying something like "how about meeting up after church?" I did not pay attention to the kanji use (oops!), and produced this message:

さあ、日曜日は、教会詐欺どうですか


Now, how about a church scam on Sunday?


My Japanese friend regularly reminds of this instance.
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Re: r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

Postby drp9341 » Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:37 am

iguanamon wrote:
basica wrote:I've had several Tagalog speakers laugh at me when I spoke with a bad accent or with bad grammar or what have you.

Yes, many people in L2 cultures are not accustomed to hearing their language spoken by a non-native... even big languages like Spanish in places like Mexico or Honduras. Small languages like Haitian Creole and Lesser Antilles French Creole, the speakers have probably never heard a non-native speak their language. Some people may take offense thinking you are being condescending to them believing they can't speak English.

It can be useful to develop a "language island" explaining that you are learning their language to show respect and to learn more about their culture. "I know I don't speak well right now, but I am trying to get better" goes a long way in these situations. My experience has been that this can turn laughers into sympathizers and helpers... not all the time, but more often than not.


I know it varies based on context, but it's amazing how much your demeanor and attitude and confidence, etc. play a role. Language learning really teaches you the hard way that it's not what you say it's how you say it. There's an expression "real recognize real" and it's one of those things that a reasonable man or a skeptic would most likely dismiss due to it being very hard to disprove.

Still, when you speak to someone you can get a sense of where their hearts at. Perhaps it's facial and body language mixed with pheromones. As I grow older I have experienced and have dealt with a wider range of my own human emotions, which gives me more empathy. Some people who I thought were "snakes" I now understand may have just been battling some insecurities. Some dudes who I thought were "top-dogs" but never meant harm were really just very naturally optimistic but not yet totally quite socially calibrated. We all deal with things differently.

I have been slowly and steadily sensing that more language learners are pushed by negative emotions shooting in the dark hoping this is what they need to reinvent themselves rather than being drawn by a really strong desire to satiate curiosity through fluency in a new language.

The latter see the condescension as a game to be won, as there is less ego at stake. Though the former, those wishing to flee into a language like a teenager seeking acceptance through a subculture will become overwhelmed at the realization that people can smell your insecurities no matter what language you're speaking. Someone who says that he thought X who spoke Y at a C2 level is a fool is compensating 99% of the time. There is perhaps the 1% who is saying it because he sees things differently and says it. How can you differentiate? By talking to people and trusting your instincts, getting burned a few times, and getting better at reading people by dropping the act that you once knew was an act and facing the truth which is that if you're not getting burned at all it's time to take another step.

I'd say the truth that most people who can't handle a little hate, xenophobia, ridicule, etc. thrown their way need to look at themselves first and figure out why that happened, and how to make it happen less. Perhaps it didn't hate and maybe something akin to hazing. How you discern xenophobia from this sort of "pressing" or "hazing" is all in the eyes and body language of the one doing it, and perhaps they pressed you hoping you would be cool, and they're also disappointed you ended up not passing whatever (perhaps odd) test they threw your way.

ALSO: IGUANAMON I'm not directing this at you, it's the impersonal "you." I agree with what you wrote.
I couldn't help but feel that some people on here and on the Reddit page might benefit from a bit of introspection. What I wrote might be my way of seeing things and completely lacking any basis in reality.
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Re: r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

Postby basica » Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:09 am

Interesting post, and even though I'm spending most of my post disagreeing with your takes ( :lol: ) I'll say it's definitely a good value add to the discussion and for some it will definitely give them something to mull over and see if it's true for them.

drp9341 wrote:
I know it varies based on context, but it's amazing how much your demeanor and attitude and confidence, etc. play a role. Language learning really teaches you the hard way that it's not what you say it's how you say it. There's an expression "real recognize real" and it's one of those things that a reasonable man or a skeptic would most likely dismiss due to it being very hard to disprove.


This is certainly true, in more ways than one. Sometimes you'll exude "energy" that makes people like or dislike you, and other times people will interpret your "energy" as someone they can get away with treating like crap. I'm a fairly big guy, and it's been amazing how certain people's attitudes change when I've entered the equation. I think the best example I can think of is when my mum was in a hospital in Western Sydney in an area primarily filled with poorer people and immigrants (my mum being an import and pensioner being a double offender no doubt). I remember walking into her room and hearing the doctor and the nurse who was there being absolutely condescending and acting like her asking questions was an egregious sin. Here I come walking in and they don't even bother feigning civility until they realized I am with her and then all of a sudden "No problems at all sir, here's what's going on and if you have any questions please feel free to reach out to us if you want to know more at any time".

drp9341 wrote:Still, when you speak to someone you can get a sense of where their hearts at. Perhaps it's facial and body language mixed with pheromones. As I grow older I have experienced and have dealt with a wider range of my own human emotions, which gives me more empathy. Some people who I thought were "snakes" I now understand may have just been battling some insecurities. Some dudes who I thought were "top-dogs" but never meant harm were really just very naturally optimistic but not yet totally quite socially calibrated. We all deal with things differently.


Somewhat ironically, I've become very wary of being "too empathetic" myself. Everyone has a sob story, not all of us take it out on other people. More often than not the situation is rather simple, it's not because they have something going on, they're just terrible people. Most people though can be shamed into appropriate behaviour though, terrible or not.

drp9341 wrote:I have been slowly and steadily sensing that more language learners are pushed by negative emotions shooting in the dark hoping this is what they need to reinvent themselves rather than being drawn by a really strong desire to satiate curiosity through fluency in a new language.

The latter see the condescension as a game to be won, as there is less ego at stake. Though the former, those wishing to flee into a language like a teenager seeking acceptance through a subculture will become overwhelmed at the realization that people can smell your insecurities no matter what language you're speaking.


Eh, I think you're over analyzing things here. All of us have insecurities and those insecurities are going to be heightened when you're most vulnerable, which speaking a language you're not fluent in and expecting to appear clumsy and silly in while speaking is certainly going to make a lot of people feel vulnerable.

I think you're ascribing reactions to language learning attitudes what really should be ascribing to someone's general personality. Some people are going to respond to mean people in a defiant way, other people are going to be hurt by it. It's the spectrum of personality and I don't think one is right, the other wrong or that there is some inner psychological things at play here like compensating for something or what have you. It makes me think of a similar situation that happened to 2 of my exes. Both times we were at a pub, both times guys were being scumbags to them. One ex came back to me bawling about what happened, the other I only found out what was going on when I saw security rushing to take her off the dude.

drp9341 wrote:I'd say the truth that most people who can't handle a little hate, xenophobia, ridicule, etc. thrown their way need to look at themselves first and figure out why that happened, and how to make it happen less. Perhaps it didn't hate and maybe something akin to hazing. How you discern xenophobia from this sort of "pressing" or "hazing" is all in the eyes and body language of the one doing it, and perhaps they pressed you hoping you would be cool, and they're also disappointed you ended up not passing whatever (perhaps odd) test they threw your way.


I think this is one of those things some people are going to handle better than others. Ultimately, I think we all need to handle a degree of adversity if we're going to make it at anything. That said, I would be wary of giving people too much benefit of the doubt. Many scummy people prey on your empathy. Call out bad behavior (and I don't mean in has to be in a totally confrontational way, it could be in a much milder form like iguanamon suggested; you do it how you feel comfortable), it's the only way people will learn to pull their head in.
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Re: r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

Postby kelvin921019 » Tue Jun 08, 2021 10:07 am

The trick to "learning xxx language to fluency in [insert a short period of time]" consists of 2 steps
1 - redefine the concept of "fluency"
2 - learn the language

[amended as suggested]
Last edited by kelvin921019 on Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

Postby rdearman » Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:07 am

kelvin921019 wrote:The trick to "learning xxx language to fluency in [insert a short period of time]" consists of 2 steps
1 - learn the language
2 - redefine the phrase "fluency"

Think you got the steps around backwards.
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Re: r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

Postby Le Baron » Tue Jun 08, 2021 4:07 pm

'Fluency' is also a word, not a phrase. But I can let it fly.
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Re: r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

Postby rdearman » Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:32 pm

Le Baron wrote:'Fluency' is also a word, not a phrase. But I can let it fly.

That is how you define fluency, we have a different view. :D
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Re: r/languagelearning: What are some hard truths that every language learner should know?

Postby kelvin921019 » Wed Jun 09, 2021 2:56 am

rdearman wrote:
kelvin921019 wrote:The trick to "learning xxx language to fluency in [insert a short period of time]" consists of 2 steps
1 - learn the language
2 - redefine the phrase "fluency"

Think you got the steps around backwards.

You are right :lol:
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