Kaufmann doesn't like Spaced Repetition (much)

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Kaufmann doesn't like Spaced Repetition (much)

Postby Kraut » Tue May 11, 2021 4:56 pm

SRS, Spaced Repetition Systems: A Major Boost to Language Learning
Steve Kaufmann


The key to success in language learning is to engage with the language often and in ways that you find enjoyable. If you like doing flash cards, using spaced repetition systems, then it's worth doing. If not, this kind of learning activity won't help much.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YofBMqkZgQ
Last edited by Kraut on Wed May 12, 2021 1:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kaufmann doesn't like Spaced Repitition (much)

Postby tungemål » Tue May 11, 2021 6:03 pm

Yes, that has been his position in all his videos. I think he's got a point, allthough I haven't been brave enough to leave Anki myself.

There are two reasons:
1 - you learn words best in context, so seeing a word in a text is far better than seeing isolated words in Anki
2 - As you collect more and more words, it takes longer and longer to do the reviews, time that could have been spent reading.

If you decide to not do SRS, you will need to read a lot, to ensure that you meet all those new words in texts anyway.
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Re: Kaufmann doesn't like Spaced Repitition (much)

Postby jmar257 » Tue May 11, 2021 6:12 pm

tungemål wrote:2 - As you collect more and more words, it takes longer and longer to do the reviews, time that could have been spent reading.

Totally agree with this. I do Anki almost every day but I've definitely noticed that there's a point past which I feel like it's just draining my motivation to do other study and when reviews pile up I don't think SRS is the best use of time. I try to keep my daily # of reviews pretty low (by not adding a ton at once and not missing too many days). To me flashcards are just a tool to make engaging with other native content easier and to get to that level quicker than I otherwise would have. I kind of view beginner courses in the same way--they're just a crutch until I can read books on my own.
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Re: Kaufmann doesn't like Spaced Repitition (much)

Postby Iversen » Tue May 11, 2021 8:15 pm

My main grievance with SRS systems is that it asks me questions. I prefer answers, and that's what I get from doing wordlists directly from dictionaries. OK, then you could say that I get questions all the time when I try to remember the translation of word or the word from its translation, which is part and parcel of the system, but the important thing here is that I have seen the answer a few minuts before - or the day before, if we are speaking about repetition rounds. But still just a short time, and therefore I would see my wordlists as a repetition system not for questions, but for information. Besides I normally just do one repetition round, two if I found the second one hard to do - but never more. Too much repetition = boredom.

As for learning words in context: yes, it sounds nice, but I get more from a context if I already know the core meaning of its central word.
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Re: Kaufmann doesn't like Spaced Repitition (much)

Postby lusan » Tue May 11, 2021 8:47 pm

tungemål wrote:Yes, that has been his position in all his videos. I think he's got a point, allthough I haven't been brave enough to leave Anki myself.

There are two reasons:
1 - you learn words best in context, so seeing a word in a text is far better than seeing isolated words in Anki
2 - As you collect more and more words, it takes longer and longer to do the reviews, time that could have been spent reading.

If you decide to not do SRS, you will need to read a lot, to ensure that you meet all those new words in texts anyway.


Yep, single word cards are terrible. I always have full sentences, media, and often images for difficulty words. I strongly believe if we have a full sentence then we are either listening/reading within a SR environment. It is much better than seems thousands of already know words every single day.

I takes me 1 hour/pay to review French and Italian.
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Re: Kaufmann doesn't like Spaced Repitition (much)

Postby smallwhite » Tue May 11, 2021 9:11 pm

Iversen wrote:My main grievance with SRS systems is that it asks me questions. I prefer answers

If you mean Anki etc, then it’s Flashcards that’s asking questions, not SRS. Flashcards ask questions and take advantage of the Testing Effect the same way (I believe) your wordlist column 1 asks you what X is in language Y which you answer in column 2, then again (repetition) backwards in column 3, then again (repetition) forward in column 4, etc.

One can just copy from one column to another, which would then be Spaced Repetition without answering questions.
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Re: Kaufmann doesn't like Spaced Repitition (much)

Postby Iversen » Tue May 11, 2021 9:36 pm

Maybe I have misunderstood Anki et al., but I thought such systems presented you with a word and politely asked you what it meant? Or in a more brutal version: presented you with a word in your own language to which you had to produce the equivalent in your target language?

Anyway: I still have the dictionary open when I choose my words for the first column (in blocks of 5 to 7 words - exceptions allowed) so I actually don't have to come up with the answer to a question at that stage. OK, when I cover the first column I do have to come up with a solution to a problem, but I saw the solution in the dictionary just minutes ago - piece of cake! And when I then cover column 1 I once again have to answer a question, but the answer is the word I wrote in column 1 just moments before I covered it up. So if my word list systems is some kind of quiz, it's the easiest quiz in the world.

As I wrote above, I prefer looking at long lists of facts instead of being asked to produce them on command, and so far I think the method has worked pretty well for me. If I want to be presented with unexpected lexical challenges I just have to open a book or read a Wikipedia article.

But you HAVE to cover the columns part of the time !! :twisted:
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Re: Kaufmann doesn't like Spaced Repitition (much)

Postby smallwhite » Tue May 11, 2021 9:58 pm

> but I thought such systems presented you with a word and politely asked you what it meant?

Flashcards (and not Spaced Repetition System) asks you questions. If you answer different Flashcards every day then it’s not SRS. SRS is about spacing out review, be it Flashcard review, re-reading the same poem as review, re-listening to the same song as review.

Anki is Flashcards that also has SRS. SRS is not Flashcards.
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Re: Kaufmann doesn't like Spaced Repitition (much)

Postby Iversen » Tue May 11, 2021 10:19 pm

I have never used any of those systems, but from what I have read about flashcards they are put at the rear end of a box, and then you draw the front card and try to remember the meaning of whatever comes up. The card then goes to the back of the box again. Unless you fill more cards into the box the average time interval will stay the same, but who can resist adding more words?

When Ebbinghaus introduced the non-equidistant spacing system, he did so because he noticed that he could permit himself to take longer and longer time between each repetition of his test items (nonsense syllables) without forgetting them. And then he drew a curve and became famous. If SRS systems follow in his footsteps then they don't invent new questions all the time - they present you with the same challenges again and again, but at progressively larger intervals. And if you feel you are getting drowned in repetitions then you can kick some of the words out and the system HAS to use shorter intervals (unless you take the opportunity to relax). If you inversely just let the collection grow then you have to answer more questions per day, else the intervals will grow - and according to Ebbinghaus you will start forgetting your words.

Well, not my cup of tea, and I doubt the meaningful words behave like nonsense syllables (at least after the first month or so), but I know that some people have success with Anki and similar systems, and some even manage to retain their interest in language learning.

I can see one way this isn't a third degree Spanish inquisition interrogation system, and that is if you are shown the foreign word together with its translation or in a context that serves you the meaning on a silver plater, but I had not expected anybody to use the Anki-program like that. On the other hand you could do the same thing with flashcards, and then it would be repetition without interrogation there too. And after a certain number of repetitions chances are that you have learnt the item in question.
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Re: Kaufmann doesn't like Spaced Repitition (much)

Postby bolaobo » Tue May 11, 2021 10:24 pm

I use SRS as a bit of a safety net. Yes, I could replace SRS by reading a lot, but I don't always have the time, and SRS ensures I'm getting at least some exposure to old material and reviewing my various languages, with an emphasis on harder material I'm less likely to remember. It's also self-regulating in that I naturally add fewer new words when reviews increase so it keeps me going at a steady but maintainable pace.

I've recently gravitated away from single-word cards though. Most of my cards are full sentences, clips from Assimil, signs, comics...it takes me longer to review but easier to remember and a lower failure rate due to having more context.
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