Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

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Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

Postby rdearman » Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:07 pm

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Re: Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

Postby einzelne » Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:49 pm

It's 2021 and we're still discussing the "don't study grammar" nonsense?...
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Re: Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

Postby eido » Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:06 pm

I think whether someone chooses to learn grammar consciously is a personal choice. (For adults learning a language in a somewhat privileged setting, i.e. they're not in exceptionally dire circumstances.)

Though, if you were asking me truly, I'd say that eventually a little bit of grammar study is required to clean things up. Pull up your big boy / big girl panties and hone in on the mistakes.

However, I don't think it matters what order you study grammar in... first or second, in comparison to initial contact with a new target.
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Re: Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

Postby Steve » Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:01 am

I did a quick background check. Benjamin Rich (aka Bald and Bankrupt and pen name Arthur Chichester) seems to do a lot of traveling and vlogging. He also has a video about his approach to learning Hindi. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNWCCKCoRdo)

My sense is two of his big interests are travel and interacting with people. He seems to go off the beaten path where most tourists don't or won't go and wants to interact with locals. He seems to have (for lack of a better term) a no-fear approach to whatever he's doing be it going places tourists won't go or using whatever phrases and words he knows to try to talk with strangers on the street. Learning common phrases and a lot of vocabulary fits what he wants to do with a language. His Hindi video suggests he is somewhat systematic about writing things down as they arise during the day.

It's clear that he has had exposure to grammar from various comments in the videos. It seems to be more that he felt like he wasn't developing any skills based on that so went to mostly input/output methods with much reliance on interacting with locals as much as possible.
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Re: Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

Postby Dragon27 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:55 am

Previous thread about "not studying grammar", where this video was mentioned:
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 14&t=14779

Bald and Bankrupt basically complains about how the explicit study of the annoying (and voluminous) conjugation/declension tables and whatnot prevents the beginner learner from actually engaging with the language content. His personal solution for the problem is to just skip this process entirely and start picking up phrases from speech/text and only maybe later (or maybe never) study some grammar when you're already experienced in the language.

Here you can hear him speaking Russian with another Russian youtuber (who makes content primarily in English)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loAxQe14ke0
His Russian still suffers from numerous grammar mistakes, but he seems to be doing fine with his primary goal - communication.

The problem with overwhelming (and unmotivated) grammar is understandable. I still remember my (slightly traumatizing) personal attempt at studying Latin a long time ago. Even though the book I attempted did try to deal out the declension patterns in a piecemeal fashion, it was still insurmountable for me so I gave up. I am now much better equipped (and experienced) to handle a language with highly inflected grammar, and I know that such an approach is not going to work for me. Grammar is a very useful tool and I always try to make good use of it throughout my entire learning process (from beginner to advanced), but not in a way when it dominates the whole thing and kills the motivation to continue.

Find your own way to study grammar.
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Re: Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

Postby einzelne » Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:17 am

Dragon27 wrote:I still remember my (slightly traumatizing) personal attempt at studying Latin a long time ago. Even though the book I attempted did try to deal out the declension patterns in a piecemeal fashion, it was still insurmountable for me so I gave up.


Out of curiosity, what was the textbook? All Russian textbooks of Latin I’ve come across are basically useless grammar reference books: lots of declension tables, zero adapted texts for reading, and the minimal amount of exercises to practice grammar patterns.

PS. My favorite Latin textbook in Russian is from the Stalin era :D (Brief translation for non-Russian speakers: while introducing new expressions, the textbook informs the reader that Lenin liked to use Nota bene! in his writings (Lenin puer probus erat!) and that Divide et impera! was used as a slogan non only by Roman emperors but also by contemporary imperialists (filii canum!)
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Re: Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

Postby rdearman » Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:42 am

einzelne wrote:It's 2021 and we're still discussing the "don't study grammar" nonsense?...

Why is it nonsense?

Personally I have always felt that vocabulary trumps grammar every time. Let me give an example of two non-English speakers who approach me with the same question.

Person A: "Excuse me sir, could you please tell me the location of ..." (doesn't know the word for the place he wants, but has perfect grammar)
Me: Wait for a minute for them to come up with the word then shrug and say "Sorry." and move along leaving them to their own devices, I hurry along to the train station for my daily commute.

Person B: "Me excuse, I want know where train station be at?"
Me: "Down the street to the left, I'm going there if you want to follow along?" On the walk they ask about their English and I give them a couple of pointers about how to say things better (e.g. grammar)

I think that languages are for communication. If you are studying a language in order to complete the Cambridge English examinations then by all means study the grammar. If you are planning to live in Cambridge, ignore that and learn as much vocabulary as humanly possible, especially nouns.

Now, after a couple of years in Cambridge you have taken onboard a lot of grammar naturally but want to improve, then buy yourself a grammar book and study and practice. Although in my experience with non-native speakers they'd be better off doing pronunciation practice before grammar. Like the many French speakers in London who put the letter H where it doesn't belong and leaves them out in place where they do. Another example of grammar vs pronunciation. French native speaker who wants to say "I am happy for you." but uses "happiness" because they don't know the correct grammar formation. So they try to say: "I have happiness for you." but because of bad pronunciation they say: "I have a penis for you."

So, vocabulary and pronunciation both trump grammar I say. :D ;)
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Re: Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

Postby einzelne » Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:58 am

rdearman wrote:So, vocabulary and pronunciation both trump grammar I say. :D ;)


Tertium datur, i.e. all three are important. I cannot imagine how an adult learner can learn a foreign language with zero grammar instruction. (Although I agree that people underestimate the importance of vocabulary.)

We don't have statistics but from my own experience I can tell that people who complain about 'endless' grammar instruction usually don't spent that much time with the language (i.e. reading, listening, output). But since language classes are generally structured around grammar explanations, people blame grammar as the major source of their failure. But it is just scapegoating.
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Re: Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

Postby Dragon27 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:12 am

einzelne wrote:Out of curiosity, what was the textbook? All Russian textbooks of Latin I’ve come across are basically useless grammar reference books: lots of declension tables, zero adapted texts for reading, and the minimal amount of exercises to practice grammar patterns.

One of those, surely. I can't remember which one exactly, unfortunately, it was approximately half an eternity ago. I tried googling up some manuals and textbooks but none of them jogged my memory.
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Re: Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

Postby einzelne » Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:34 pm

Dragon27 wrote:One of those, surely.


I though so. No need to google it. They are totally useless, I agree. Luckily, now we have enough good options for learning Latin.
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