Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

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Re: Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

Postby rdearman » Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:52 pm

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Re: Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

Postby Deinonysus » Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:31 pm

I would say that there is a certain not-insignificant subset of the population who are terrified of grammar and would avoid a highly synthetic language like Russian because it sounds scary. For that subset, I do think it would be effective to skip the grammar and just learn what they can, because speaking caveman Russian is better than learning no Russian at all.

But for the rest of us, which I think will include most of the people on this forum, grammar is an essential skill that should be learned just like any other aspect of the language. You don't need to speak in intricate, grammatically complex sentences like a professor or a character in a highbrow novel, but if you avoid basic mistakes you will find that native speakers will have an easier time understanding you. Of course they will probably still understand you if you make frequent mistakes due to a poor understanding of grammar, but it will take the listener extra effort, so we'd might as well make things as easy for potential conversation partners as we can.

I would say that for me, figuring out the grammar is the fun part. There are several languages that I've dabbled in mainly because I thought the grammar was cool (such as Inuktitut, Navajo, and isiXhosa, although in the latter's case the phonology is even cooler than the grammar!). So you can add me to the list of people who like to study grammar and do the drills. ;)
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Re: Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

Postby lemme_try » Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:23 pm

At the end of the day, it depends how you want to use the language. I don't think anybody can learn Russian to a decent level without learning the grammar. Written Russian can get pretty complex. I am an advocate for the drills.

I pity a person who has to learn Russian without understanding the grammar, and I pity a person even more who has to study the Russian grammar. Lol.
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Re: Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

Postby aaleks » Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:33 pm

I guess, I don't belong to the majority of this forum who likes grammar and drills. I wouldn't say that I don't like grammar or hate that part of language learning though. I didn't have any traumatic experience of learning it in school even though we were taught a lot of grammar (I was learning German in school). I hated word-lists back then, and maybe when learning grammar meant rote memorization I hated that part of grammar too. But again, it depended on other factors. I had no problem memorizing things like: ich bin, du bist, er ist, etc. And if a grammar exercise rather reminded a math equation to me, I might even like doing such drills.

But the problem is learning grammar explicitly doesn't work for me as it seems to work for many people. In my case the explanaitions and drills don't lead to understanding and applying the rules correctly in writing and speech. So I have no choice but noticing grammar patterns, and making my own conclusions. Sometimes reading grammar books may help with the direction in which to look and think, but that's all.

I don't know where comes from my inability to learn grammar as "normal" and serious language learners do. Maybe I just don't have the linguistic talent. Whatever the reason is, I don't see any point in trying to use an approach that clearly doesn't work for me just to be taken seriously as a language learner. I might have not shared this story in this thread because I know that my approach to learning grammar is normally frown upon by serious language learners, I decided to write it here for those few who struggle with learning grammar from textbooks/grammar books as I did (and do). Someone reading this post might think that my English could use some grammar drills. Probably it could, but in my case the drilling would hardly yield any positive result. Sometimes you have no choice but reinventing the wheel. And, to be honest, I resent a little being seen as a lazy or seeking fun person just becuase I prefer to learn grammar from exposure rather than from (grammar)books.

P.S. I learn Russian without drilling grammar, btw :D When you a native speaker you can have that luxury :)

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Re: Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

Postby lemme_try » Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:33 pm

Deinonysus wrote:I would say that there is a certain not-insignificant subset of the population who are terrified of grammar and would avoid a highly synthetic language like Russian because it sounds scary. ...

...I would say that for me, figuring out the grammar is the fun part. There are several languages that I've dabbled in mainly because I thought the grammar was cool (such as Inuktitut, Navajo, and isiXhosa, although in the latter's case the phonology is even cooler than the grammar!). So you can add me to the list of people who like to study grammar and do the drills. ;)


I think it is all about not overwhelming yourself. Just taking things step by step. I feel a lot of language enthusiast get overly eager and put too much pressure on themselves.

I love drills. I don't know how efficient they are, but they are surely effective.
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Re: Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

Postby iguanamon » Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:30 am

Most people don't like the "non-fun" components of language-learning. Grammar can be considered to be one of these. Myself, I like to tackle it as I go through a course. The old audio-lingual courses, such as FSI and DLI, tend to deal with grammar within the lesson through drills and notes. This is my preferred method of absorbing it. To me, it is much easier to deal with it as it comes than to try and fix it later. Is it the most thrilling thing to do in language-learning? No! It is, for me, an essential component of learning a language to a high level.

As much as I like native material and dislike courses in general, I like a thorough course which deals with grammar as it comes along in each lesson and has sufficient repetition in drills to help me have half a chance to practice and incorporate it. Frankly, I think it's what makes for a successful learner.
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Re: Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Apr 30, 2021 3:54 am

This has been an interesting thread. For myself, rather than seeing this guy as some kind of trashing grammar guy (he seems to have given it a good go for a while, grammar study that is), good on him for not letting that stop him from getting out there and learning the language.

I find myself agreeing with iguanamon again on this one. A good course (for me or two, three, four..... ) that sees you work through the grammar and drill it or apply it or use it in exercises as you go little by little, I find works well. You learn a bit of grammar in course, you listen, you practice pronunciation, you learn vocab, you shadow a conversation, do some drills, add a bit more grammar and so on. This does give a great foundation and any grammar points that remain confusing or unclear after one starts using native content can be solved with some sporadic grammar study, some selective grammar study or some allocated course work on the side. I can't imagine skipping grammar altogether in the early stages, I think I'd feel like I'm going crazy worrying about solidifying poor grammar use.

Grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation, and all the others, they all matter. Still, this thread does also remind me of the importance of acquiring the vast amounts of vocabulary required to learn a language seriously.

Finally, and probably depending on your language background (native language(s), other learned languages) and the language you are learning will depend on how much time you might want to spend on grammar (or not)....
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Re: Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

Postby bolaobo » Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:50 pm

einzelne wrote:It's 2021 and we're still discussing the "don't study grammar" nonsense?...


Is it really controversial? These days, Lingua Latina is considered better than Wheelock's by most everybody.

Sure, you still "study" grammar intuitively in Lingua Latina, but it's not explicitly drilled and explained in painstaking detail.
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Re: Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

Postby einzelne » Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:24 pm

bolaobo wrote:Is it really controversial? These days, Lingua Latina is considered better than Wheelock's by most everybody.

Sure, you still "study" grammar intuitively in Lingua Latina, but it's not explicitly drilled and explained in painstaking detail.


I see that American universities still use Wheelock's in their syllabus. I don't know why. May be this is institutional inertia. May be it is easier to organize classes that way: it's more comfortable to spend 50 minutes by explaining Latin grammar in English instead of organizing and interactive session. I think Wheelock's still can be used but you need to supplement it with tons of graded readers like LLPSI.
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Re: Do not learn Russian Grammar (Opinions?)

Postby Beli Tsar » Sat May 01, 2021 11:11 am

bolaobo wrote:
einzelne wrote:It's 2021 and we're still discussing the "don't study grammar" nonsense?...


Is it really controversial? These days, Lingua Latina is considered better than Wheelock's by most everybody.

Sure, you still "study" grammar intuitively in Lingua Latina, but it's not explicitly drilled and explained in painstaking detail.

Except it is explicitly drilled and explained... I'm studying through Lingua Latina right now, and it's not merely that every chapter includes grammar explanations and drills (that's what the pensa are!) but it also comes with two further books of excercita, which are 50-50 vocab and grammar drills. How many other textbooks come with two extra books of excercises? And that's excluding the Nova Excercita Latina, another two books of excercises added later.

LLPSI done as Orberg imagined it drills grammar far more thoroughly than lots of 'grammar-translation' textbooks I could mention. It has literally ten times as many exercises as another textbook I'm using. The difference is that it is done in language, and the explanations are more concise, not that the drilling isn't there.

The comparison to Wheelock's always seems unfair, too. Wheelock's just isn't a very good textbook, even for the method it uses! If we compared LLPSI to, say, Learn to Read Latin, a textbook that is well designed and whose users report excellent results, it would be clearer that Wheelock's vs. LLPSI isn't really a fair comparison of two methods.
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