Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

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Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Kraut » Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:52 pm

Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Picture this: A group of non-native English speakers are in a room. There's someone from Germany, Singapore, South Korea, Nigeria and France. They're having a great time speaking to each other in English, and communication is smooth.

And then ... an American walks in the room. The American speaks quickly, using esoteric jargon ("let's take a holistic approach") and sports idioms ("you hit it out of the park!"). And the conversation trickles to a halt.

Decades of research shows that when a native English speaker enters a conversation among non-native speakers, understanding goes down. Global communication specialist Heather Hansen tells us that's because the native speaker doesn't know how to do what non-native speakers do naturally: Speak in ways that are accessible to everyone, using simple words and phrases.

And yet, as Hansen points out, this more accessible way of speaking is often called "bad English." There are whole industries devoted to "correcting" English that doesn't sound like it came from a native British or American speaker. Try Googling "how to get rid of my accent" and see how many ads pop up.


https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandso ... 9361841656
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Le Baron » Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:40 pm

And yet when native English speakers actually do go the route of "speaking in ways that are accessible to everyone, using simple words and phrases", they're portrayed as 'talking loudly and simplifying as though non-English people are idiots.'

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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby mokibao » Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:48 pm

I'm going to quote myself here:

mokibao wrote:
Native speaker content will always be the norm that L2 learners grow towards. The internet makes that content easily accessible almost everywhere.


Except that 1) there are more non-native speakers of English than native speakers (almost 3x as many), so as the language spreads any piece of English writing or speech is statistically more likely to come from a non-native speaker, and 2) the trend has already begun, with the rise of so-called 'airport English', globish, international English, call that however you like. There are many reports of native English speakers having to adjust their speech patterns and lexicon when they have to deal with international speakers in any prolonged capacity (e.g. research, business and so on). It is still English, but it noticeably deviates from what native speakers are used to: fewer idiotisms, more regularity, more articulation. Then there are local examples in multicultural countries like India or Singapore, where many people use English as a national and second language but their variety is strongly influenced by their respective mother tongue.

What I mean to say, is that just like Latin survived the fall of the Romain Empire and was used as a lingua franca up to 10 centuries onwards, yet an ancient Roman speaking classical Latin would have had a lot of trouble deciphering a Middle Ages text written in ecclesiastical Latin, we are likely to observe the same trend with respect to English and the globalized world, where its international version will diverge, as all languages do, from the varieties locally spoken by native speakers, and we are already seeing the first hints.


But International English isn't a dumbed down version of English. It's not any less 'real' than the English used by native speakers. People using it are no less adept at communicating, naming things and describing their environments using it, than if they were using Hollywood English (which is itself artificial and doesn't represent the diversity among native English speakers), or British English or Australian English. People conclude business deals, write scientific papers and negociate treaties in International English, so obviously their communication can't be dumbed down that much.


Also, words like holistic don't stump people, because fancy words tend to be cognates. (Holistic, as it turns out, is olistico in Italian, holístico in Spanish... you get the idea.) The real difficulty lies in very idiomatic expressions (such as you hit it out of the park indeed), slang patterns, regionalisms, and above all locutions whose meaning is completely different from that of its constituent words: see off, draw back, make out, and so on. Non-native speakers aren't adept at using them and will avoid them in favor of equivalent words that don't follow this confusing pattern.

Another difference is that English spoken by native speakers is much less articulated. It takes years of immersion and practice to know which sequence of letters is appropriate to jumble and which one is not. Non-native speakers, especially those who mastered the language academically, and even if they read a ton of complex papers and can write entire treatises, lack spoken practice, so they articulate everything just in case. Which may be just as well since their conversation partners are often also non-native speakers and any attempt to "sound" native would probably result in more confusion, not less.

The words and phrases in vehicular English aren't exactly simple per se, they draw more often from the common ground found among the greater population, rather than just the Anglo world. This results in shifts of vocabulary and syntax, but is it simpler? I don't think so. Otherwise native English speakers wouldn't also need to adapt to this kind of English.
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby verdastelo » Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:55 pm

The is a symptom a contemporary ill. We find a non-issue or a trivial issue, blow it out of proportion, and then virtue-signal. A few gems from the article:

"Good English" (and the educational resources, like tutoring, needed to acquire it) is tied to class status; it functions as a barrier to success which not everyone can pass.

Isn't it true of Mandarin, Hindi, Russian, or almost any language? :shock:

Speak in ways that are accessible to everyone, using simple words and phrases.

The Nigerians have already done that for you. Try parsing this Pidgin text: Dem also destroy properties for di area wey dey within Omuagwa axis of Elele-Owerre road. Pesin from di community wey see wetin happen tell tori pipo say di armed men use force enter di checkpoints. Dem scatter di barricades den burn di operational vehicles wey dey dia, di eyewitness add.

"Hansen, who's spent years as a communication specialist studying this question, says the onus shouldn't be on non-native speakers but rather on native English speakers to improve their comprehension of accents different from their own."

It seems that the world has gone crazy. By that logic, I can voluntarily come to the US, the UK, Canada, or Australia, speak bad English, and blame the natives. :evil:

"That means no more confusing idioms, jargon and sports references ... so no "touching base on improving synergy with your teammates."

Essentially transform an alive language into machine talk. It reminds me of an interview of Jyoti Sanyal, who compiled a book of mistakes we Indians make in English.

Image

Instead of policing others' accents, native English speakers can focus on changing their own enunciation to be more understandable.

It's easier for my wife to practice Aikido on me than to "simplify" her Russian. :lol:
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Le Baron » Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:58 pm

This quoted from above:
"Hansen, who's spent years as a communication specialist studying this question, says the onus shouldn't be on non-native speakers but rather on native English speakers to improve their comprehension of accents different from their own."


Is astonishing really. Talk to anyone about language learning (here especially) and there is a solid insistence that you need to get your accent in order before you skip off to Spain, Germany, China, whatever.
So, as implied, it's apparently only English-speakers who are pig-headed about other people's accents; even though in fact English speakers are far more accustomed to hearing people speak accented English. Mostly because more people use it as a lingua franca. It is in fact much more common to go to places where English is quite widely-spoken (like where I am) and people are puzzling over your (English) accent if you aren't speaking like a 1970s BBC newscaster.

I'm sick of these articles and the people who write them.
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Iversen » Sun Apr 25, 2021 6:45 pm

I don't think there is one unified variant of English reserved for L2 speakers - their speech will in all likelihood reflect their native languages, and besides their levels will range from abysmal to invisible (those that aren't caught out as non-native are the invisible ones). The native speakers have also got different ways of using the English language, but as native speakers they are supposed to be more fluent than (almost) any foreigners, and they are supposed to know cultural 'secrets' from at least the location where they live which foreigners can't be expected to know - unless of course those foreigners also live there as expats.

So Heather H may be have a point, namely that people who aren't top notch English speakers will use a simpler language which therefore is easier to understand for other less than perfect speakers - and native speakers may not be able to simplify their language, or if they do, they may be doing so in a slightly condescending way. And as far as I can see, that's the only thing she wanted to say - not that the stuttering, lacune-ridden effusions of less-than-perfect learners should be seen as better than the externally incomprehensible mutual smalltalk of consenting native speakers. It's just easier to understand.

Personally I don't fear native Anglophone speakers - I know that I can match them in being incomprehensible within the boundaries of their language, and I don't think I have harder time understanding for instance a US redneck than for instance a Kiwi or a Cockney speaker would have, but I know from languages where I'm less well versed that a good second language learner may be easier to understand than a careless native speaker.
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby tungemål » Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:47 pm

Le Baron wrote:...pig-headed...

See, now I had to look up this strange native-only idiom to understand you. :D Not that I don't enjoy learning new idioms.
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Lemus » Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:46 pm

From my reading of the article there are really three major things that native English speakers need to do, all of which have less to do with language and more with having a basic level of cultural awareness and common curtesy.

1) Watch your culturally-specific references

"Hitting it out of the park" isn't a phrase I would use with Brits or Australians either. People from different backgrounds have different experiences and will understand different references and that should not be news to anyone.

2) Avoid jargon

Really just a good idea in general. "Let me push back on what you just touched on regarding optimized best workflow practices" is just nonsense no matter what your native language is. Say what you mean and don't try to sound smarter by adding unnecessary words

3) Don't be a jerk

In my experience the one that people struggle with the most :D )
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Le Baron » Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:36 pm

3) Don't be a jerk


Not really a phrase I would use. There's a tendency for non-native English speakers to adopt a North American vernacular as standard (and assume everyone speaks that way).

Who is really failing to be culturally aware? Is the demand now that English people bone up (there's another idiom for the list) on the cultural sensitivities of 30-odd other linguistic-cultures so as not to offend, but everyone else can tell English speakers that they conform to a stereotyped caricature of an American tourist?

My final idiom in relation to these assertions: "on yer bloody bike!"
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Lemus » Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:17 pm

I was referring specifically to the professor in the article who made fun of his colleague's accent. It's one thing if that is among friends privately (whether that's funny certainly will depend on your context) but I am not aware of any culture where mocking someone's accent in a professional setting in front of a large crowd would be acceptable.

If you do that, you are a jerk, no matter what your native language is.
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