Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Cavesa » Sun May 16, 2021 10:50 am

Well, that's nothing new. It's been discussed on this forum repeatedly too. The International Bad English is a sort of a dialect of its own, and its speakers struggle with a native, or also with a "too good" non native.

A funny point: it is untrue, that this article speaks only about responsibilities of the natives. It describes the responsibilities of the non natives too, such as spending a lot of money, time, and efforts on not only learning English, but also passing exams (which may require something totally different than normal use of English at work), and also facing bullying sometimes. Even if we limit it just to the money, it is simply clear that any native (=with zero investment in learning English) is morally wrong to claim that non natives have no responsibilities (=most of the people working in the International Bad English environment have paid hundreds and thousands of euros/dollars to get through this gatekeeping mechanism).

However, there is no good universal solution, and we see a part of the reasons even in this thread. :-D

If we push the natives to dumb their English down, and to make it more standard, we don't know which standard to pick. It is impossible to find one standard for so many people, any language will start crumbling after having reached some point (just look what happened to Latin or Arabic, it's normal). We will also dumb down the communication and not only prevent the non natives from improving, but also lose some important parts of the functions of the communication. Even jokes and dumb sportsy sayings are a part of communication and socialisation, unless we want to talk like robots. I'm also convinced that pushing natives to dumb down their speaking in general (not for specific situations requiring it) further strenghtens the prejudices towards the non natives and the class system, where we are bellow the anglophones. Honestly, I'll be very cross with any anglophone patronising me and talking to me like to a moron :-D

But just dismissing the need for some native participation to the solution of the problem, that's not gonna work either. Bullying shouldn't be supported. It is done very often and either very obviously (like the mocking professors mentioned in the article. I heard similar stories from the medical congresses) or less obviously but very harmfully (hiring token anglophones in companies wishing to improve their image, and paying them much more than to equally educated and experienced locals or non anglophone expats). The call for normal basic decency, and for consideration for the non native's efforts and real skills, that's surely a needed impulse.

I'd say the only solution is diversification and strenghtening the role of regionally important languages. If you demand people to learn English, you can demand them to learn a different big language too, they'll do it (if you pay, or if you make it a gatekeeping mechanism too). It would make the ground internationally more even, the anglophones wouldn't be seen as the globally superior class, and you'd get higher quality communication in languages, that haven't created their International Bad Spanish/French/Chinese/German/anything yet. The important thing is making two foreign languages the norm among the educated people. It is partially happening, at least in some countries, two languages are demanded more and more often, but this trend hasn't reached the needed scale and level yet.

But I know it's probably not gonna happen on the global scale, the marketing that is part of the huge EFL business is simply too strong. So, what will keep happening are companies paying lots and lots of money to push their International Bad English employees to improve their English, and countries funding English in schools at the expense of the other (and in many cases potentially more profitable) languages.
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Cainntear » Mon May 17, 2021 10:03 am

Cavesa wrote:But I know it's probably not gonna happen on the global scale, the marketing that is part of the huge EFL business is simply too strong.

Sorry, but I think you're confusing cause and effect here.
EFL is not the result of a marketing scheme, it is something that has emerged organically and there is now a huge international demand for -- the EFL industry simply services that demand. No-one has to market English, they only have to market their school over other English schools.
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Cavesa » Mon May 17, 2021 4:51 pm

Cainntear wrote:
Cavesa wrote:But I know it's probably not gonna happen on the global scale, the marketing that is part of the huge EFL business is simply too strong.

Sorry, but I think you're confusing cause and effect here.
EFL is not the result of a marketing scheme, it is something that has emerged organically and there is now a huge international demand for -- the EFL industry simply services that demand. No-one has to market English, they only have to market their school over other English schools.


I don't think so. Your claim "noone has to market English" just means you don't have the real experience with this. I may be imprecise, as I do not mean any one particular langauge school, I mean the whole English teaching industry, and the soft power tool it is.

But no, the brainwashing "English is all you need" is definitely not a purely naturally occuring fact, people learn English because they are punished for not doing it, and because of the cummulated effort of the thousand schools pushing advertisements everywhere. The fact you are demanded English even in jobs, that do not really need such a skill, that is a good example, of how brainwashed people are by the marketing. Or even people, who do not need English anywhere (not even for the job) are often targetted and start paying for an English class, because of the marketing and social pressure, even if they'd actually use a different language more.

The cause and effect are not even the appropriate terms for this anymore, it is now a loop. And something the anglophones extremely unfairly profit from. Not only because of beint treated as the superior class and not having to pay for the most demanded language on Earth, but they also get the money we are forced to spend.

Perhaps studying more the phenomenon of the International Bad English and a sort of acceptance for it, might be a good thing economically. Sure, it will dumb down the communication, as I've described (and more, it is really painful to communicate with the support of some international companies). But it might mean much less money wasted on English teachers and classes globally. I've read a few newspaper articles already, that various enterprises are cutting down expenses in the crisis, and benefits like language classes (which are extremely popular) are being cut the first.

So, perhaps settling for worse English might be a good step forward, to not bully either the companies or the individual employees into needless upgrade of a skill that already serves more or less sufficiently already. If this gets socially more accepted, than it will take away a large part of the "learn English like a native" advertisements, because awesome English will be seen as something approximately as important as dance or music classes. Nice to learn, but totally unimportant in the real life. And the natives will have to adapt, as they'll still be demanded less effort than the non natives.
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Cainntear » Mon May 17, 2021 5:26 pm

Cavesa wrote:
Cainntear wrote:
Cavesa wrote:But I know it's probably not gonna happen on the global scale, the marketing that is part of the huge EFL business is simply too strong.

Sorry, but I think you're confusing cause and effect here.
EFL is not the result of a marketing scheme, it is something that has emerged organically and there is now a huge international demand for -- the EFL industry simply services that demand. No-one has to market English, they only have to market their school over other English schools.


I don't think so. Your claim "noone has to market English" just means you don't have the real experience with this.

To paraphrase: "you disagree with me, so you must not know what you're speaking about."
I may be imprecise, as I do not mean any one particular langauge school, I mean the whole English teaching industry, and the soft power tool it is.

"Soft power" isn't the same as marketing.
But no, the brainwashing "English is all you need" is definitely not a purely naturally occuring fact,

Just because it isn't universal natural law and inviolable truth doesn't mean that it didn't emerge organically.
The fact you are demanded English even in jobs, that do not really need such a skill, that is a good example, of how brainwashed people are by the marketing. Or even people, who do not need English anywhere (not even for the job) are often targetted and start paying for an English class, because of the marketing and social pressure, even if they'd actually use a different language more.

"Brainwashed" perhaps, but there's a huge difference between "marketing" and "social pressure".

There's a human tendency to want to find someone to blame for everything and to ascribe intent to every undesirable outcome, but the world just doesn't work that way. The dominance of English is just another emergent phenomenon -- there is no intent and no central driving force; it is a self-sustaining meme. If you want to compare it to anything, it's like a superstition -- a folk belief that people undritically take as true, and will defend as true because they simply can't imagine it not being so.

The cause and effect are not even the appropriate terms for this anymore, it is now a loop. And something the anglophones extremely unfairly profit from. Not only because of beint treated as the superior class and not having to pay for the most demanded language on Earth, but they also get the money we are forced to spend.

Oh I understand that, but the thing that you don't seem to be aware of is how crappy a career English teaching actually is. Yes, it's a career that's easy to get into, but it doesn't generally pay a professional wage, so it's the middlemen that run the schools that get the cash, and quite a lot of them aren't English speakers anyway.

Then there's the soul-crushing phenomenon of finding your life and your social value purely dictated by language, with many people only talking to you to practice their English and losing all interest in the conversation when you try to use their language. It can be really wearing when you can't just relax and unwind because you're forced to always consciously moderate your language during your leisure time in exactly the same way you have to in your work time. And then you move home from Italy not having had any opportunity to really improve your Italian, having never been given your full pay by some shoddy little school that wasn't paying you much to start off with.

But they get away with it, because there's always been a steady stream of "gappers" ready to "do the TEFL thing" for a year that can be sold to clients as "native-speaking teachers", so you're never going to actually have to pay for the full value of a well-qualified, experienced teacher.

So yes, being a native speaker has a certain level of privilege, but the thing about privilege is that it's not a binary thing -- there are many forms of privilege, and many ways to lack it.
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Le Baron » Mon May 17, 2021 6:25 pm

Cainntear wrote:Just because it isn't universal natural law and inviolable truth doesn't mean that it didn't emerge organically.

Well...'organically' might well be a slippery word here. There's absolutely no doubt that English was spread around the globe by force during colonialism. While there wasn't quite the French predilection for stamping-out and banning local languages, it simply became a tool of rule as the language of rule.

Since the end of WWII the U.S. has done the same and it is precisely as a result U.S. economic domination (and the remnants of UK economic reach) from that time that English has been put into that position. So it's not really "organically". And the push for it globally is sort of self-perpetuating machine. I think it's fair of Cavesa to say that it is an industry promoting itself. It's also full of rank amateurs in jobs merely because they are natives.
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Iversen » Mon May 17, 2021 6:34 pm

In my own country, Denmark, the use of English has become so pervasive that we are on the road to becoming a nation of bilinguals, and I can't see how that can be stopped. And since everybody here hears English on a daily basis the level will continue to rise. The price is that all other languages are being squeezed out, and that even Danish is losing terrain under the pretext of globalization. I have even met people, including one former collegue, who thought that we should drop Danish totally and become an English speaking country for good.

In earlier times this would have been seen as high treason, and I still think it is. It's about time that the powers that be should stop paying lipservice to teaching 'third languages' while systematically killing off the possibilities to do so. And we should stop being so impressed by people who can express themselves in English - not because the language is bad in itself, but because it is used as a cover for total lack of knowledge about other languages. If our youngsters never watch German or Swedish television because they understand English better (as a result of being bombarded with Anglophone internet media and streaming, which made English the easy and lazy solution), then we will within one or two generations end up in a situation where the only common medium of communication between us and any other language community in the world will be English (apart from a few nerds in the background, who studied other languages as a hobby or lived abroad).

We may also have to stop being overpolite. Some people think that everybody should switch to English if just one person in a group doesn't understand Danish or some other common language, but in reality it is the intruder who is being impolite and a nuisance - especially if he/she has lived in a country for years without bothering to learn the local language. If something really is international - like this forum - then I do think that it is OK to demand that the lingua franca be a true lingua franca, and in practice this means English. But we have been too patient with expats who couldn't care less about the country where they have chosen to live.

The 'smartness' factor should also be seen with less patience, and here I'm in particular thinking of the advertising industry and public services and dubious business consultants. Why should it sell more stuff if the advertisement is screaming its message out in English? Why should public services and jobs in Denmark have English names? Why are Danish schools and other institutions given English names? Ok, for global companies and products sold abroad it may be a good idea, but using English names for things that by golly aren't leaving the country is just bad taste.

And let me stress again: I do like the English language and don't expect nor want to sabotage it in its role as a common lingua franca, but it is as if we have got a vociferous class of people who just about have the mental capacity to learn English, but not a third language on top of that, and now they try to impress the rest of us with their Anglophone skills as if speaking English was the apex of human culture.
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Jinx » Mon May 17, 2021 7:21 pm

Iversen wrote:... But we have been too patient with expats who couldn't care less about the country where they have chosen to live. ...
I could not agree more. I (a native English speaker living in Germany) am a member of a few online expat groups. Recently someone posted in one of these groups about a "bad experience" he'd had at a shop here in Germany. He went in and started talking to the employee in English, asking her for help. She replied (in German) "This is Germany, you have to speak German here", to which he responded by yelling "Xenophobe! Racist" at her, and proceeded to call the police on her.

Of all the people commenting on the post, I was the only one who dared to suggest that he learn the German for "I'm sorry, do you speak English? My German is not good."

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but to me, this sort of thing is basic etiquette. That said, one's personal background does make a difference: some people choose to live in a different country for fun, some have to move because their spouse got a job there, and some are refugees who were forced to flee their homelands. Obviously I would be harsher on somebody in category 1 than on somebody in category 2 or, especially, 3. But anyone can learn to stumble through a sentence or two in the language of their new home, as a gesture of respect.

(Edit: And I say that last sentence above from personal experience. I used to help refugees in my neighborhood practice their German, and even taught them a bit. These were mostly Syrians, some Afghans and Palestinians, etc. Some of them were well into their sixties, so not exactly spring chickens. And they did a simply splendid job learning German, working their hardest to make themselves understood. So it really stings when I see "my fellow Americans" coming here and not lifting a finger to learn the language, sometimes even after ten or fifteen years living in Germany.)
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby tiia » Mon May 17, 2021 8:13 pm

Cainntear wrote:Then there's the soul-crushing phenomenon of finding your life and your social value purely dictated by language, with many people only talking to you to practice their English and losing all interest in the conversation when you try to use their language. It can be really wearing when you can't just relax and unwind because you're forced to always consciously moderate your language during your leisure time in exactly the same way you have to in your work time. And then you move home from Italy not having had any opportunity to really improve your Italian, having never been given your full pay by some shoddy little school that wasn't paying you much to start off with.

I'm sorry, but I think complaining about not being able to use your native language at a native level while living abroad is somehow ridiculous.

I would never even expect anyone abroad (outside of the German speaking countries) to speak German. Let alone native-like German. Some people can speak it pretty well, so that I can have a nice conversation with them, but native-like?
Honestly, I don't even mind, I'm not living abroad to speak German.

But could I at least practise Finnish during my time as an exchange student in Finland? Not really. You couldn't really take normal university classes in Finnish, because my level wasn't really sufficient yet (I took one, and I know that I was an exception). Having had bad luck, the university didn't even provide Finnish classes at my level during the first semester.
Nowadays the same university offers almost all Master's programmes in English. Maybe the amount a Finnish classes has increased a bit, but I still not that much more than 8 years ago.
Anyway, a lot of foreign students come here just to improve their English...

Local people often switch to English as soon as they realise you're not yet absolutely fluent. No matter what your native language is. So most of the times you get either native-like Finnish or English. If your Finnish is extremely good, you may also be offered Swedish. (This can even be seen as a compliment, since the person probably assumes you're part of the Swedish speaking minority.) It's even expected that you know English to quite an advanced level, incl. technical, medical and other special terms of all kind.

So I have to disagree that people always just see an English-speaking native as free practise. At least here they do this with everyone regardless of their native language.

The Finnish situation is quite extreme, when it comes to the amount of English used. I really hope it's not like that in too many other countries yet. (At least it isn't in Germany.)
But reading Iversens comment, Denmark seems to be in the same position, because pretty much everything could be said about the situation in Finland., too. :(
Personally I use English only as the last available option, otherwise I would not be able to use my other languages.


Although I'm annoyed by the position of the English language, I do not agree that there's such an extreme amount of marketing and expensive classes everywhere.
For example, from people I know in real life, I have also just heard of one company (in Germany) that offered language classes for everyone. They offered French, not English.


Jinx wrote:He went in and started talking to the employee in English, asking her for help. She replied (in German) "This is Germany, you have to speak German here", to which he responded by yelling "Xenophobe! Racist" at her, and proceeded to call the police on her.

Of all the people commenting on the post, I was the only one who dared to suggest that he learn the German for "I'm sorry, do you speak English? My German is not good."

I'm not sure, but the answer from the employee is definitely quite rude. It reminds me of the former minister of foreign affairs, who once said a similar sentence to a reporter from the BBC asking a question in English. Guess what? The public response was not quite positive.
I think the employee could have just responded in German "how can I help you?".
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby rdearman » Mon May 17, 2021 8:31 pm

Are we really having this conversation yet again?
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Jinx » Mon May 17, 2021 8:45 pm

tiia wrote:I'm not sure, but the answer from the employee is definitely quite rude. It reminds me of the former minister of foreign affairs, who once said a similar sentence to a reporter from the BBC asking a question in English. Guess what? The public response was not quite positive.
I think the employee could have just responded in German "how can I help you?".
Fair point, you're absolutely right. They both behaved unreasonably to one degree or another, and the entire nasty scenario could have been avoided with a little politeness on either side.

I do tend to side more with those who stubbornly struggle against the cultural hegemony of English, simply because I love languages and am sick to death of my native one, but then again... look at what I'm doing right now. Writing in the official forum language of English in an international/internet context. So I guess I shouldn't complain too loudly :)
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