Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?
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- Yellow Belt
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Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?
So I am very curious about this but it is a little hard to explain. I am wondering which languages are difficult to tell if the speaker is an L2 speaker or not. This can have a lot of factors. Maybe the language has many dialects that other native speakers aren't aware of (like Brazilian Portuguese dialects in Portugal), maybe it has more L2 speakers/learners then l1 speakers (Irish),perhaps it is a language with so many speakers that people don't really care/notice if your accent is a little off or you make the odd mistake here and there (Russian,English,Mandarin) I am sure there are other factors as well. This question is a bit of a stretch so I don't mind creative answers.
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Re: Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?
Esperanto. Because while I’m sure native speakers *exist* what are the odds of meeting one?
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Re: Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?
A mediocre L2 speaker would probably be recognizable in any language, and a truly splendid one might pass under the radar without being discovered - but for the near-native whizz it would definitely be easier to avoid detection if he/she tried his/her luck outside the region in which her/his chosen dialect was spoken. Which of course leads us to the languages with many dialects mentioned by the OP.
Would a small, but very diverse language or 'dialect bundle' (like Basque or Irish) be a better candidate than a 'big' language like Spanish or Portuguese or English? Well, the first problem would be to learn it since there probably would be a scarcity of learning materials. To become indistinguishable from a native speaker a learner would probably have to stay in a suitable location and ONLY listen to people from that area. I can't say that it is impossible, but it is not very likely.
As an afterthought (and response to lawyer&mom): might a language where most speakers were L2 learners be a suitable candidate? Well, Esperanto or Latin (if anybody still teaches their offspring Latin these days) come to mind, but at least for Esperanto I have met native speakers during congresses, and my impression is that they are recognisable because they speak less clearly than the learners - those who have learned the language as adults and become very proficient speakers of it seem to be more 'orderly' and 'rule fixated' in their speech than those who were brought up with the language. And that observation could in principle be extended to other languages as well. The trouble is that I have no way of knowing whether my diagnosis of anyone is correct or not since I'm a second language learner too - and both for Esperanto and Latin a rather mediocre one...
Would a small, but very diverse language or 'dialect bundle' (like Basque or Irish) be a better candidate than a 'big' language like Spanish or Portuguese or English? Well, the first problem would be to learn it since there probably would be a scarcity of learning materials. To become indistinguishable from a native speaker a learner would probably have to stay in a suitable location and ONLY listen to people from that area. I can't say that it is impossible, but it is not very likely.
As an afterthought (and response to lawyer&mom): might a language where most speakers were L2 learners be a suitable candidate? Well, Esperanto or Latin (if anybody still teaches their offspring Latin these days) come to mind, but at least for Esperanto I have met native speakers during congresses, and my impression is that they are recognisable because they speak less clearly than the learners - those who have learned the language as adults and become very proficient speakers of it seem to be more 'orderly' and 'rule fixated' in their speech than those who were brought up with the language. And that observation could in principle be extended to other languages as well. The trouble is that I have no way of knowing whether my diagnosis of anyone is correct or not since I'm a second language learner too - and both for Esperanto and Latin a rather mediocre one...
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Re: Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?
Lawyer&Mom wrote:Esperanto. Because while I’m sure native speakers *exist* what are the odds of meeting one?
There are native speakers, I met a couple at the polyglot gathering. Gavin is 3rd generation Esperanto speaker I think.
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Re: Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?
My anecdotal experience is that native Esperanto speakers tend to have kind of poor Esperanto. They may only have ever spoken to 1 parent, who may not have had a good level, their other native language influences their speaking patterns quite heavily, they might have a vocabulary which is pretty limited, and they might not have any interest in using Esperanto enough that it would improve. There are always exceptions tho.
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Re: Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?
I can only speak to my personal experience.
English
It is often unclear who the nonnative is. Not at first anyway, and especially when you're not listening for it. A trained ear (some members of this here forum), might certainly argue otherwise, but this is the case for me. Why? My best guess is the sheer number of native speakers, coming from different parts of the world, and speaking their own flavors of English. Take that, then multiply it by the extraordinary number of nonnative speakers, some speaking a highly polished, grammatically perfect English. Finally, in my opinion, a considerable number of native English speakers demonstrate a surprisingly poor command of their own language.
I will concede that, given enough time, one can probably spot a nonnative sooner or later. Although, was this to be tested in some way, I would likely still make a few wrong calls.
Polish
Here, the situation is drastically different. In my view, the language is far more consolidated, and any deviation from the norm stands out immediately. For example, slight variation in syllable stress, and I will already have enough to guess that you're likely from the north. In this climate, a nonnative has little place to hide. Usually, it is obvious someone is a nonnative within a couple of sentences.
I'm sure exceptions must exist, but I have personally never met (or heard on TV/radio) a proper L2 speaker who can be mistaken for a native. Even most children of Polish émigrés, growing up outside of Poland but speaking only Polish at home, sound a certain, immediately recognizable way. Yes, even if their grammar and vocabulary is perfect. Usually people refer to this as speaking "softer" than normal. Go figure.
English
It is often unclear who the nonnative is. Not at first anyway, and especially when you're not listening for it. A trained ear (some members of this here forum), might certainly argue otherwise, but this is the case for me. Why? My best guess is the sheer number of native speakers, coming from different parts of the world, and speaking their own flavors of English. Take that, then multiply it by the extraordinary number of nonnative speakers, some speaking a highly polished, grammatically perfect English. Finally, in my opinion, a considerable number of native English speakers demonstrate a surprisingly poor command of their own language.
I will concede that, given enough time, one can probably spot a nonnative sooner or later. Although, was this to be tested in some way, I would likely still make a few wrong calls.
Polish
Here, the situation is drastically different. In my view, the language is far more consolidated, and any deviation from the norm stands out immediately. For example, slight variation in syllable stress, and I will already have enough to guess that you're likely from the north. In this climate, a nonnative has little place to hide. Usually, it is obvious someone is a nonnative within a couple of sentences.
I'm sure exceptions must exist, but I have personally never met (or heard on TV/radio) a proper L2 speaker who can be mistaken for a native. Even most children of Polish émigrés, growing up outside of Poland but speaking only Polish at home, sound a certain, immediately recognizable way. Yes, even if their grammar and vocabulary is perfect. Usually people refer to this as speaking "softer" than normal. Go figure.
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- thevagrant88
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Re: Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?
If I’m understanding the intention of this post, then Greek and Spanish. The overlap in phonology makes attaining a rather impressive accent relatively painless, both for Greek learners of Spanish and Spanish learners of Greek.
Langfocus made a video on the subject which covers this very phenomenon partially.
https://youtu.be/LPMqoHPJzac
Langfocus made a video on the subject which covers this very phenomenon partially.
https://youtu.be/LPMqoHPJzac
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- sporedandroid
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Re: Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?
Raconteur wrote:English
It is often unclear who the nonnative is. Not at first anyway, and especially when you're not listening for it. A trained ear (some members of this here forum), might certainly argue otherwise, but this is the case for me. Why? My best guess is the sheer number of native speakers, coming from different parts of the world, and speaking their own flavors of English. Take that, then multiply it by the extraordinary number of nonnative speakers, some speaking a highly polished, grammatically perfect English. Finally, in my opinion, a considerable number of native English speakers demonstrate a surprisingly poor command of their own language.
I will concede that, given enough time, one can probably spot a nonnative sooner or later. Although, was this to be tested in some way, I would likely still make a few wrong calls.
As a native English speaker I disagree. I’ve been fooled by people from the Netherlands, but I don’t get fooled often. In my personal experience I’ve found it hard to spot non-natives in Hebrew compared to other languages. I’m guessing native Hebrew speakers will disagree with me.
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Re: Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?
Raconteur wrote:It is often unclear who the nonnative is.
I first thought that "nonnative" was some kind of grammatical case that I hadn't heard about...
Anyway, I'd also have to disagree. I think it will be pretty easy to spot non-natives in any language. Accent is so hard to disguise. In fact I find it a fun game to try to guess the native language of someone speaking english with an accent. For some nationalities I find it easy. Like I commented on here, the dutch accent is among those that are easy for me to hear.
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Re: Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?
Yes, accents that aren't just standard pronunciation are so particular that they are hard for a non-native to properly acquire; and to my mind are never acquired by L2 speakers.
Hardly anyone outside of language enthusiasts/professionals know the academic grammar of their own language and that's pretty normal. So someone very fastidious sticks out. The clues I've used to determine if someone is not a native of English (or Dutch or French) are the grammar in terms of not using common memes which are strictly incorrect, word choices and particularities of accent. For the latter I'm limited because I don't know all the ins and outs of every regional accent in an L2 language.
In Dutch for example a lot of natives have a tendency to say things like 'groter als hem' as a comparative rather than 'groter dan hem' (bigger than him), which I assume likely comes from an earlier usage of that as the comparative as in German. At the Dutch language school I attended they made a point of catching these things and correcting them and also some things like 'het is niet onredelijk' (it's not unreasonable), even though in both languages such constructions are used to give a different nuance than simply 'it's reasonable'. So you get a clue as to who might be a non-native.
Accent and word choices tend to be the biggest giveaway though. A short conversation may fool anyone, but the longer the exposure the more you discern peculiarities. I've very often been taken for a Flemish speaker initially, but in longer conversations some people clearly hear anomalies and ask where I'm from.
Hardly anyone outside of language enthusiasts/professionals know the academic grammar of their own language and that's pretty normal. So someone very fastidious sticks out. The clues I've used to determine if someone is not a native of English (or Dutch or French) are the grammar in terms of not using common memes which are strictly incorrect, word choices and particularities of accent. For the latter I'm limited because I don't know all the ins and outs of every regional accent in an L2 language.
In Dutch for example a lot of natives have a tendency to say things like 'groter als hem' as a comparative rather than 'groter dan hem' (bigger than him), which I assume likely comes from an earlier usage of that as the comparative as in German. At the Dutch language school I attended they made a point of catching these things and correcting them and also some things like 'het is niet onredelijk' (it's not unreasonable), even though in both languages such constructions are used to give a different nuance than simply 'it's reasonable'. So you get a clue as to who might be a non-native.
Accent and word choices tend to be the biggest giveaway though. A short conversation may fool anyone, but the longer the exposure the more you discern peculiarities. I've very often been taken for a Flemish speaker initially, but in longer conversations some people clearly hear anomalies and ask where I'm from.
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