Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?

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Cavesa
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Re: Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?

Postby Cavesa » Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:53 am

I think it's extremely rare to mistake the two in any language, extremely few people achieve that. Yes, a language being huge and diverse internally, that helps a bit. On a good day and in a good moment, I get taken for a native francophone from a different region. But if you give me a bit more opportunity, I'll break the cover. :-)

I'd say there is much more difference in whether the natives of some languages care more or less. I'd say a part of the pleasant "oh, you're not a native" surprises comes from a situation, in which the native simply thinks more about what you say and do, than whether you sound native. Their focus on the situation outweights their instinct to spot an intruder. It requires a solid level from the learner, it is less likely to happen in some cultures than others (and here, I see cultural differences not only between countries, but also cities vs villages, social spheres and education).

It basically means that you are very good and that you are being more interesting than just your foreign background in the given moment. I've had such experiences in French and even in Spanish, but I don't think it happens as much in Czech (because foreigners learning it are already weird, the good ones are very rare). But I think this "oh, you are not a native?!" (when it is not just empty flattery of course) is mainly a result of locals' experience and culture, and about the situations I live, rather than any difference between these languages and their learning process.
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Re: Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?

Postby jackb » Tue Mar 09, 2021 12:33 pm

Apparently something like this happens with some expats. I have several friends that have lived in the US for 20-30 years. Their English is very good, but all have noticeable accents. They've all told me at different times other native speakers have asked them, 'Where did you learn German/French/Italian/Chinese, yours is perfect?!' It usually happens when they go home to visit family, but it goes away after a week or two.

I guess it's difficult in all languages, because in the end it comes down the recipient.
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Re: Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?

Postby Iversen » Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:26 pm

The simple rule is that if people tell you how good you are then you aren't. If they stop telling you that then you may be OK for a foreigner, and if you really are good, then they may for a time mistake you for a native speaker - but not from their region.. It is is only if they speak to you about something which only locals ought to know that you can start wondering whether you actually aren't too execrably disgustingly bad - for a foreigner, that is.

I haven't had many cases of this, but since I dont't prioritize perfect speech anyway I'm not going to weep my eyes out on account of that. Nevertheless there has been a few cases during my long life as a traveller. Once I was interviewed by a camera team in the street somewhere in Austria (I think it was Graz, but it could have been Salzburg), and we got quite far into the interview before the journalist asked whether I came from Kärnten ... ahem, no I'm from Denmark. Oh no, they needed a local opinion - delete delete delete....

Another time (in England) I was told that I had an accent in my English, and when I asked where they thought I came from they said it might be Wales, but they weren't quite sure. At that time I had not even visited Wales so I couldn't have picked up any Welsh speech patterns - and to this day I don't even know how Welsh English sounds (there is a quizmaster Rob-something from there on BBC, but to me he sounds fairly neutral). A third time I was talking to an employee at a museum in Strasbourg who started to pour out names of local localities, and when I told her I didn't know any of them she told me that she had assumed I lived there. However Strasbourg is a special case since the town is brimfull of foreigners whose French may not be quite top notch.

On the other hand the only person who has ever dared to continue speaking to me in English in France was a moron at the aquarium in Montpellier, and when I asked why (in French) he told me that I had an accent. Then I told him that he also had an accent in English .. and went into the aquarium to look at some more polite fish.

Actually I do think I have an accent in every one of my languages, but apparently not enough to make people falsely sing my praises.
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Re: Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?

Postby verdastelo » Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:21 pm

Hindi-Urdu.

Anecdotal evidence: A waiter I thought was Indian turned out to be from Nepal. A fellow in the Taekwondo class turned out to be from Afghanistan, instead of Kashmir (as I had incorrectly imagined). And the owner of one of my favorite restaurants in the town is from Assam. I would have never guessed that. Yeah, there are intermediate speakers with strong accent and incorrect usage, but most of the ones I have encountered speak decent Hindi, virtually indistinguishable from natives.

That's probably because all the 41.9 crore (419 million) learners of Hindi-Urdu are ensconced in the Indian subcontinent with 41.1 crore (411 million) native speakers. The ratio of native speakers to second language speakers is almost 1:1. So we don't have to go out and hunt for teachers, unlike the learners of English, French, Chinese, and other foreign languages here.
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Re: Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?

Postby Raconteur » Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:44 pm

sporedandroid wrote:As a native English speaker I disagree.
tungemål wrote:Anyway, I'd also have to disagree.
I'm curious, do you think you could, beyond a shadow of a doubt, determine someone is not a native speaker of English after just 2-3 sentences? [and assuming, you are not actively listening for it]. If you claim you can do this, chapeau bas. I certainly would not be able to.

I have met people from Switzerland, Denmark, Turkey and even China that could be, at first, mistaken for native speakers. I have also met people with thick Australian and NZ accents, which at first made me unaware that this was their second or third language (I'm most used to American English).

One example. In China, some in the upper class begin English training in early childhood (we're talking personal tutors at age 4). The children often spend time studying abroad as well. The ones I've met speak better English than many Americans I interact with.

As I have noted before: "given enough time, one can probably spot a nonnative sooner or later." However... can you always do so right away? Despite working/living with nonnative speakers of English for most of my life, I still get surprised every once in a while.

Polish on the other hand, 2-3 sentences are enough. Although, as I have written, I'm sure exceptions exist.

EDITS: Clarity, mistakes.
Last edited by Raconteur on Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Le Baron
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Re: Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?

Postby Le Baron » Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:47 pm

Iversen wrote:The simple rule is that if people tell you how good you are then you aren't. If they stop telling you that then you may be OK for a foreigner, and if you really are good, then they may for a time mistake you for a native speaker - but not from their region.. It is is only if they speak to you about something which only locals ought to know that you can start wondering whether you actually aren't too execrably disgustingly bad - for a foreigner, that is.

This is very true. It's as if the compliment is designed to balance the recognition of your foreign accent/mistakes. I had this especially in Dutch at the beginning from people who knew me when I was a total beginner or had spoken to me when I was lower-level, then met me again when I'd improved. The perception was that I'd become totally fluent...but it was a mirage. I've always had a better accent in French, despite knowing less vocab overall and fewer people here speak it so I've easily passed, but in Brussels I was unmasked after a while, but mostly for failing to recognise words/idioms.

Iversen wrote:On the other hand the only person who has ever dared to continue speaking to me in English in France was a moron at the aquarium in Montpellier, and when I asked why (in French) he told me that I had an accent. Then I told him that he also had an accent in English .. and went into aquarium to look at some more polite fish.

Ohhh, je deteste ça! J'ai vécu presque la même chose à Cologne, dans le cathédral. Un gars m'a posé une question en allemand et quand j'ai repondu il m'a repondu immédiatement en anglais et m'a parlé comme si j'étais un touriste désorienté et il étais une guide officiel! J'étais vraiment énervé de ça, mais j'ai répondu du tac au tac et je lui a demandé si les gens pouvaient facilement discerner son accent néerlandais très évident. Cela lui n'a pas plu du tout! :lol:

(N'hésitez pas à corriger mes erreurs!)
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Re: Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?

Postby Raconteur » Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:00 pm

jackb wrote:It usually happens when they go home to visit family, but it goes away after a week or two.
Another funny, observable phenomenon is: who is the expat speaking to? My partner (fluent, nonnative English speaker) always remarks how she can tell when I'm speaking to my American friends on the phone, usually from Northeastern US. And, no I don't scream foggetaboutit! to anyone :lol:
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Re: Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?

Postby Brad » Sun Mar 14, 2021 12:12 pm

Hector Bellerin is a Spanish footballer who plays for Arsenal. He's 25 now but came over when he was 16. Not only does he speak perfect English but he has a definite London accent. If you didn't know who he was then I think he'd certainly pass for a born and bred Londoner.
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Re: Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?

Postby tastyonions » Mon Mar 15, 2021 4:56 pm

In English I'm not sure I've ever been fooled by a non-native going for a standard American accent and speaking spontaneously. Actors doing rehearsed lines are another story.

But I bet someone who learned English by living in an area whose accent I don't hear regularly could fool me more easily.
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Re: Which language is difficult to tell if a speaker learned it as a second language?

Postby Agorima » Sun Apr 18, 2021 3:47 pm

I spoke with people located around the world.
Everyone keeps its own accent in English, so it's not that hard to know when the speaker is nonnative.
And it's not that easy to fool me, unless the speaker has a RP accent.
Then it's about the usage of idiomatic expressions (and the British humour) to distinguish natives from nonnatives.
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