When are languages most likely to interfere with each other for you?

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Re: When are languages most likely to interfere with each other for you?

Postby Ug_Caveman » Fri Feb 26, 2021 5:50 pm

chove wrote:
Haha I came here to say Dutch interferes with my German


A real shame that they like to fight each other so much, as they're both languages which would be very useful to me in terms of the places I want to visit and the field I'd like to work in.

I've told myself if I ever get to C1 in Dutch I can try again with German :lol: but until then it'll just be a little Swedish for a sibling-germanic language
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Re: When are languages most likely to interfere with each other for you?

Postby einzelne » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:12 pm

sporedandroid wrote:
einzelne wrote:I don’t have any languages active besides English active at the moment. I just notice languages doing weird things inside my head.


That's really weird. Usually, problems arise when you try to activate them.
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Re: When are languages most likely to interfere with each other for you?

Postby einzelne » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:44 pm

Cavesa wrote:I need to keep at least two foreign languages sharp at all times, it may change to three, should my new job I am applying for require it. And letting the others fall into just passive mode doesn't pay off, because I've already regretted this several times, when I suddenly needed them.


If you live in a multilingual environment which basically forces you to keep several languages active, then by all means keep them all active! There is a price for that though and it's sometimes quite huge (for instance, when I did my masters in the Netherlands, the most discussed topic on the facebook page for Russian expats was how to retain advanced skills in English while progressing in Dutch. A common complain was that fluency in Dutch negatively affected their English. Mind you, their English was already advanced (C1-C2) and yet they started to struggle with it once their Dutch became fluent). So, if you're an adult learner and don't need to move to a new country, I think developing advanced active skills is an overkill (I repeat: in general, there are always exceptions though).
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Re: When are languages most likely to interfere with each other for you?

Postby Cavesa » Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:36 pm

einzelne wrote:
Cavesa wrote:I need to keep at least two foreign languages sharp at all times, it may change to three, should my new job I am applying for require it. And letting the others fall into just passive mode doesn't pay off, because I've already regretted this several times, when I suddenly needed them.


If you live in a multilingual environment which basically forces you to keep several languages active, then by all means keep them all active! There is a price for that though and it's sometimes quite huge (for instance, when I did my masters in the Netherlands, the most discussed topic on the facebook page for Russian expats was how to retain advanced skills in English while progressing in Dutch. A common complain was that fluency in Dutch negatively affected their English. Mind you, their English was already advanced (C1-C2) and yet they started to struggle with it once their Dutch became fluent). So, if you're an adult learner and don't need to move to a new country, I think developing advanced active skills is an overkill (I repeat: in general, there are always exceptions though).


Yeah, a new language always means less time for the old one. But that still doesn't mean that people not living in a multilingual environment should stick to one foreign language and give up on anything else. Why should they even learn more, if they are supposed to keep only one of them active? And if they don't learn or maintain more than one, how will they react to new opportunities? You're basically advocating for learning only one foreign language (which in most cases will inevitably lead to just English, and therefore lower mobility in Europe). And it also means limiting people's access to foreign media. It is wrong to recommend anybody that.

People shouldn't be encouraged to dumb themselves down. Quite the opposite, everybody with standard education should be more and more encouraged to keep two or three foreign languages on a solid level. That's even what the EU recommendations' strive for (but the real means to achieve that are still not that great).

But isn't it actually beautiful, that your colleagues' English could deteriorate? Mine has deteriorated in the last year too and it's awesome in some ways! I am so much better in French, when it comes to speaking. And from a few things I've recently tried on my own, I think my Spanish might overtake it too. I will probably need to add either Dutch or German to the mix and at a high level too. Isn't it actually beautiful, that we can get partially rid of English, without any problem for our daily lives? The "English is the only thing that matters" propaganda is showing some cracks :-) Yes, of course I don't want to fall bellow B2 speaking after all the investments and suffering, but that isn't really a real risk (everything is still in place, just the fluency and perhaps pronunciaton are getting worse. But that is actually not bad, because I am now much closer to the international standard, that years ago, when I was preparing my CAE.).

I think complaining about deteriorating English is not too wise. Especially as it is clearly a free choice of everyone included. It was not Dutch, that affected your colleagues' English, it's not French affecting mine. It is our neglect of English, the language that is the easiest one to maintain. Your colleagues were barking on the wrong tree. They should have either actively worked on their English, or be more grateful that they were actually getting a real and authentic integration to their new country, instead of the usual expat bubble. And if they didn't want that, they could have gone to a real anglophone country.
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Re: When are languages most likely to interfere with each other for you?

Postby einzelne » Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:23 pm

Cavesa wrote:People shouldn't be encouraged to dumb themselves down. ... You're basically advocating for learning only one foreign language ... The "English is the only thing that matters" propaganda is showing some cracks :-)


I think you read too much into my suggestions. I don't encourage people to dumb themselves down, far from it. I'm just trying to be realistic. If there are two languages fighting in your head, the most reasonable strategy is to keep one active, while developing passive skills in the other or others (but limiting yourself to passive skills doesn't mean to jettison other languages completely)

And of course I don't believe that "English is..." mantra otherwise I wouldn't bother with other languages. Personally, I would rather live in the times of Latin, French, or German as lingua franca:) I firmly believe though that knowledge of foreign languages has nothing to do with intellect. You don't magically become smarter if you speak two (3,4 etc) foreign languages instead of one.

Cavesa wrote:But isn't it actually beautiful, that your colleagues' English could deteriorate?


Beautiful? Imagine yourself working in a transnational company, when it's part of you job to make powerful presentations and participate in negotiations in English etc. and then suddenly your own language betrays you: you're no longer that eloquent, your speech is less idiomatic — not because you haven't reach the advanced level yet but because you had it and then suddenly lost it, right at the moment when you started to feel confident in Dutch. What's beautiful about it?
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Re: When are languages most likely to interfere with each other for you?

Postby Cavesa » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:03 pm

einzelne wrote:
Cavesa wrote:People shouldn't be encouraged to dumb themselves down. ... You're basically advocating for learning only one foreign language ... The "English is the only thing that matters" propaganda is showing some cracks :-)


I think you read too much into my suggestions. I don't encourage people to dumb themselves down, far from it. I'm just trying to be realistic. If there are two languages fighting in your head, the most reasonable strategy is to keep one active, while developing passive skills in the other or others (but limiting yourself to passive skills doesn't mean to jettison other languages completely)


But they aren't likely to fight, it is usually just a temporary thing. And it might just mean you should put more care and efforts into one of them. Just keeping one of them is not the most reasonable strategy. If you give up, you will not achieve more than one active language (which can make you miss out on many opportunities). The most reasonable strategy is to evaluate your needs (both immediate and possible in the foreseeable future) and making a decision. If two languages are "fighting" in your head, the decision to just improve at both (which will separate them) is just as valid. But yes, your point with keeping some languages passive at least solves the issue of freedom of information.

And of course I don't believe that "English is..." mantra otherwise I wouldn't bother with other languages. Personally, I would rather live in the times of Latin, French, or German as lingua franca:) I firmly believe though that knowledge of foreign languages has nothing to do with intellect. You don't magically become smarter if you speak two (3,4 etc) foreign languages instead of one.

Oh, I never suggested that knowing several languages would make you automatically smarter. It just gives you access to much more information, and to more points of view. Which you can use to inform yourself better. (But no, it is absolutely wrong that knowledge of foreign languages "has nothing to do with intellect". People with IQ 130 are simply likely to have a bit easier time learning than people IQ 100. But both can certainly succeed, and the person with lower IQ may make some smarter choices and become more successful in the end.)


Cavesa wrote:But isn't it actually beautiful, that your colleagues' English could deteriorate?


Beautiful? Imagine yourself working in a transnational company, when it's part of you job to make powerful presentations and participate in negotiations in English etc. and then suddenly your own language betrays you: you're no longer that eloquent, your speech is less idiomatic — not because you haven't reach the advanced level yet but because you had it and then suddenly lost it, right at the moment when you started to feel confident in Dutch. What's beautiful about it?


But if someone works in such a company and their English deteriorates nonetheless, it's probably their own choice. They've clearly neglected something, if they are worse at the language in spite of every day use of it.

What is beautiful about it: we need to finally move on from the transnational=English logic. I don't like the English monopoly erasing the other big languages, and often creating a totally artificial environment. Usually, people with various native languages speak one that is native to none of them (so the overall level is a broken B2ish English usually), that simply affects the quality, and it damages the culture of our world. The fact that your colleagues were able to achieve a high level in Dutch in spite of working in such an environment, that's actually very beautiful and surprising. It's usually the opposite, with people from such companies sticking to English and expecting their host country to cater to them.

And yes, I understand their disappointment completely, even though I don't share it. I achieved C1 years ago (and I had suffered for it most probably much more than them.). And just like them, I've found my English deteriorating lately, when I was handling a crisis much better in French. So, I 100% understand their point, but I also find it nice. It proves that I was right, and all those "you should just learn English" idiots and bullies were wrong, I need other languages more than English, and it is also possible to be better at those other languages.

The recent dysbalance is caused purely by my neglect of English, not by my French. My Spanish is improving (around B2, passively C1) and it is not affecting my French. So, I don't really think there is any "fight". There is only a skill people neglect in some way. Perhaps your friends stopped doing anything extra in their free time? Perhaps they just like to complain, instead of admitting their own mistakes?
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Re: When are languages most likely to interfere with each other for you?

Postby sporedandroid » Sat Feb 27, 2021 2:06 am

einzelne wrote:
sporedandroid wrote:
einzelne wrote:I don’t have any languages active besides English active at the moment. I just notice languages doing weird things inside my head.


That's really weird. Usually, problems arise when you try to activate them.

Weird. Right now my goal is to get passive Hebrew skills as quickly as possible. I guess it helps me progress quickly, but it seems to make Hebrew interfere with everything. I may be working on passive skills, but it sure doesn’t feel passive. A few months ago I tried to improve my Icelandic skills to see what would happen. It showed me how volatile Hebrew really is for me. I’m making good progress in it, but I’m definitely not ready to leave it alone. The other issue I have is that Icelandic also wants all my attention. Even though it’s also a passive language. If I ever want to return to it I think I’ll also have to avoid other languages.
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Re: When are languages most likely to interfere with each other for you?

Postby leosmith » Sat Feb 27, 2021 3:59 am

sporedandroid wrote:For me it seems to do more with what level I’m at than anything else.

I normally experience it a bit in the beginning when my level is low in a language. But it seems predicatable and not too severe. I occasionally expereince it between similar languages, but even less often/severe.

There was an exception. Swahili (my 3rd language) is the main trouble-maker. I say this because when I was originally learning it, and tried to speak Spanish (2nd language), I experienced terrible interference from it. No problems the other way around. After I left Africa, I ignored it for 17 years, then relearned it. At that time, when I tried to speak Tagalog (10th) I once more experienced terrible interference. Mild interference the other way around. Since Swahili gained and surpassed its previous level very quickly, I was able to study it less often than Tagalog, and the interference went away.
sporedandroid wrote:Right now my goal is to get passive Hebrew skills as quickly as possible. I guess it helps me progress quickly, but it seems to make Hebrew interfere with everything.
Maybe your Hebrew is my Swahili.

einzelne wrote:If there are two languages fighting in your head, the most reasonable strategy is to keep one active, while developing passive skills in the other or others (but limiting yourself to passive skills doesn't mean to jettison other languages completely)

I know that a lot of people do this. However, if I make the decision to learn a language, I cannot stand to have it inactivated, so this isn't a valid solution for me, but I agree that it would work.
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Re: When are languages most likely to interfere with each other for you?

Postby sporedandroid » Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:44 am

leosmith wrote:
sporedandroid wrote:For me it seems to do more with what level I’m at than anything else.

I normally experience it a bit in the beginning when my level is low in a language. But it seems predicatable and not too severe. I occasionally expereince it between similar languages, but even less often/severe.

There was an exception. Swahili (my 3rd language) is the main trouble-maker. I say this because when I was originally learning it, and tried to speak Spanish (2nd language), I experienced terrible interference from it. No problems the other way around. After I left Africa, I ignored it for 17 years, then relearned it. At that time, when I tried to speak Tagalog (10th) I once more experienced terrible interference. Mild interference the other way around. Since Swahili gained and surpassed its previous level very quickly, I was able to study it less often than Tagalog, and the interference went away.
sporedandroid wrote:Right now my goal is to get passive Hebrew skills as quickly as possible. I guess it helps me progress quickly, but it seems to make Hebrew interfere with everything.
Maybe your Hebrew is my Swahili.

einzelne wrote:If there are two languages fighting in your head, the most reasonable strategy is to keep one active, while developing passive skills in the other or others (but limiting yourself to passive skills doesn't mean to jettison other languages completely)

I know that a lot of people do this. However, if I make the decision to learn a language, I cannot stand to have it inactivated, so this isn't a valid solution for me, but I agree that it would work.

Hebrew might be like Swahili is for you. Did you have a very hard time with Swahili when you were starting out? I had a ridiculously hard time with Hebrew at first. I could not retain words at all. For fun I tried a Finnish lesson on a language learning app and I had no trouble remembering the words. Even though Finnish isn’t indo european either. I also tried a Greek lesson and I also found it easy to remember words. So I know it wasn’t the alphabet.
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Re: When are languages most likely to interfere with each other for you?

Postby El Forastero » Sat Feb 27, 2021 4:47 pm

I learned portuguese and reached C1 level two years before starting Italian, which I studied in a hilghly intense, overfocused, fanatic way, reaching also C1. But after that, I discover that I simply couldn't speak portuguese like I used to do. Whenever I started a sentence in portuguese, immediately my brain shift to italian, even with the prosody and intonation. Hoppefully I didn't need my portuguese, nor my italian, but I lost the opportunities to practice in real contexts although being C1

Another curious issue concerns my spanish (my native language). I have unconsciously modified some of my spanish strcutrure and adopted other ones, so my spanish sometimes doesn't sound as natural as it wuould be expected. For instance: I stop using the articles UNOS, UNAS because english doesnt' have these plural indefinitie articles. Also, I overuse the passive voice for structures in which impersonal spanish can be used and is more natural
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