How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

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Re: How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

Postby IronMike » Fri Feb 26, 2021 9:41 am

einzelne, you might be interested in how The Untranslated got to his incredible reading proficiency in several languages. This post outlines what he did. Well worth the read.
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Re: How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

Postby David27 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:32 pm

I am in agreement with you. I do not like extensive reading, because missing vocabulary often makes me lose some of the wonderful nuance to characters, setting, plot, etc. so while it does slow me down a lot, I always look words up while reading. Even when ‘training’ by reading modern novels or easier YA books to help build my reading speed and vocabulary before I’m able to tackle more difficult works, I’ll stop to check unknown words to help build up my vocabulary. With e-readers and online dictionaries it doesn’t take too long. If my language abilities are not strong enough and I would have to stop my reading frequently making it break my focus in the story, then I either read easier things until my reading ability and vocabulary knowledge improves, or I read a dual-language version, if it’s a book I love, then I can reread it later only in original.

Although as a caveat, being very busy with work and life, and using my strategy has lead to a large decrease in number of books read a year. When I was younger I would read 20-30 books in English on average a year, now it’s a measly 3-5. Part is free time, part is that I look up works, often almost study the works, which requires greater focus and attention so I can’t do it when I’m tired, and takes up a lot more time. But in the end I don’t like missing so much vocabulary and continuing to read. So you just have to do what works for you.
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Re: How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

Postby Iversen » Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:59 pm

These days I rarely read literature, and old non fiction is mostly irrelevant and oudated - which solves the problem. When I do read old things it is mostly to find information about classical composers or painters or other historical persons, not for the literary value of the texts. But I do include a certain amount of old and arcane vocabulary in my wordlists just for fun so that I can have the thrill of finding ways to use it. Methinks the honourable readers of my multiconfused log have noticed this innate propensity while perousing my humble writings.

I do however make an exception when it is the old language itself I want to study - like when I maintain my Ancient French or Occitan or Norse or Latin by reading original texts - then a literary text full of lies may be as useful and interesting as a chronicle (and definitely more enticing than a prayerbook). On the other hand it is easier to read the Anglosaxon Chronicle in Wessex Anglosaxon than the much more polished (and famous) Beowulf, and therefore I may have to choose the terse and somewhat monotonous chronicles instead of the tall tales in the poem.
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Re: How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

Postby lusan » Fri Feb 26, 2021 3:28 pm

einzelne wrote:
lusan, as I mentioned, I personally cannot stand flashcards, especially Anki, but great that it works for you! But since I started to read on Kindle app I started to track all new words I come across. It is then that I started to realize how huge you vocabulary has to be when you’re aiming at comfort reading of literary works in a foreign language. For instance, just La peste gave me 1300 new words in French. So, a pace 800 words per year simply doesn’t work for me. I think for passive vocabulary, Anki is an overkill.


It depends. My reading method cover in on seating different aspects:

1. Extensive - I just read and I write down -without looking dictionary- whatever unknown words show up.
2. Intensive - I dumped the card into Anki because I read novels and there are 2 difficult issues for me: street expressions and descriptive vocabulary. Nothing to waste.
3. Pleasure: Reading for reading sake. 20-40 pages a day is a real pleasure.

See, I love multitasking. I know is a lot of work. However, I believe that effortless learning is not really learning. I need to feel my brain oozing and exhausted to acknowledge that I am moving forward.

Nope. 800 words meant the number I have since since I began using this approach. -Since my last post I know another 118-. Before I have not been very consistent. However, now I am targeting 3650 words per year. I suspect that after 3-4 years I will not have to do it anymore since I would have an additional 10000 words on top of whatever I know.

einzelne wrote:I think for passive vocabulary, Anki is an overkill.


It depends. If one just wants to read over but if I want to read the way I do in English or Spanish where I never find unknown expressions/words -in my subject matter.... well... then Anki is, for me, a fast and efficient way.

By the way, I read HP in Polish and French that way. Now I regret that I did not write those words down. I would be happier with another a deeper/stronger reading skills.
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Re: How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

Postby einzelne » Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:18 pm

IronMike wrote:einzelne, you might be interested in how The Untranslated got to his incredible reading proficiency in several languages. This post outlines what he did. Well worth the read.


Thanks! I quickly skimmed through it. I think it neatly summarizes my own experience of trial and error with English:

I have had an opportunity to get acquainted with the so-called online polyglot community, and came to the conclusion that although there are a lot of people who can read in multiple languages different translations of The Little Prince and the Harry Potter series or some popular science articles swamped with cognates, very few can boast of the ability to read fluently sophisticated literary fiction in more than five languages.


Yes, my thoughts exactly! I started to develop my reading skills English because I wanted to read Moby-Dick in the original. It took me 5 years before I could finally tackle it. It's so great to discover fellow travelers!
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Re: How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

Postby lusan » Fri Feb 26, 2021 8:00 pm

IronMike wrote: einzelne, you might be interested in how The Untranslated got to his incredible reading proficiency in several languages. This post outlines what he did. Well worth the read.


Great!

I liked this quote:
wrote: The whole enterprise might take anything from two to five years depending on how frequently and how long you study and practice. It is a lot of hard work. Don’t believe anyone who says it is easy. Most probably, they want to sell you something.
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Re: How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

Postby Lisa » Fri Feb 26, 2021 10:54 pm

German proved to be a tough nut to crack. So much different and so much more difficult than the other languages I have studied, it stubbornly refused to join my arsenal.


So I'm not alone...
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Re: How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

Postby Iversen » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:15 pm

Untranslated wrote:I have had an opportunity to get acquainted with the so-called online polyglot community, and came to the conclusion that although there are a lot of people who can read in multiple languages different translations of The Little Prince and the Harry Potter series or some popular science articles swamped with cognates, very few can boast of the ability to read fluently sophisticated literary fiction in more than five languages.


I have been to the same kind of polyglot events, and I haven't got the faintest idea about the number of participants there who would be able to read 'classical' literature in five languages or more - I didn't ask them, but maybe mr. Untranslated did. However there is actually evidence that reading a lot in general helps you to get a decent vocabulary, in particular if this also includes a lot of literature. See for instance the diagram below (from the testyourvocab site). However this diagram also shows that those who read a lot, but not much fiction, aren't lagging far behind - only those who hardly ever read fall way back. And this being said, I don't see why popular sci mags should be vilified. OK, there may be fewer 2. person verbs than in an average novel, but apart from that I don't see much difference in the language level between popular science mags and popular fiction. OK, there may be some authors that employ a higher number of arcane words, but then there is also scientific texts that are impossible to understand without a thorough knowledge of the subject matter.

As for translations -... well, I can't disagree with the thesis that literature ought to be read in the original language. On this point there is of course a clear difference between at least some kinds of fiction and most non fiction: you rarely read scientific texts for their style, but more for the factual content. But even non fiction can have a clearly defined style: as I have mentioned in my log I once bought "Muzicofilia" by the psychiatrist Oliver Sacks in Romanian during a trip to Cluj (about tonedeaf people etc.), but I have also read his "The man who thought his wife was a hat" in English, and I can't say that I prefer one over the other - it was clearly the same author behind the words, and his narrative style had not suffered the least from being transferred to Romanian.

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Re: How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

Postby Lisa » Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:43 pm

I'm not sure you can really capture the essence of a complex, rich work of literature while using a dictionary; if you have to look it up, you won't get all that much nuance... and likewise, not all translations are equivalent. Some translations may capture the essence of the original but others may just provide the words in a row. A really great translation may give you more nuance than reading it with a dictionary... But I'd certainly say reading the original is still better. It's like looking at reproductions of artifacts in museum, they might look the same but you aren't getting that same connection.
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Re: How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

Postby einzelne » Thu Oct 14, 2021 2:42 pm

Apple just release iOS 15 and I must stay that I'm pleasantly surprised by the fact how user-friendly iPad's ecosystem has become for reading parallel texts. Here I have the Kindle app with the original on the left and iBooks on the right with the translation).

Minimalist and distraction free. Ideal for close reading and intensive sessions!
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