How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

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einzelne
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How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

Postby einzelne » Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:21 am

Each of us learn foreign languages for their own particular reasons. I don’t know if I’m alone in this, but my main reason for learning languages (apart from English) is the ability to read ‘classical’ or ‘canonical’ (however problematic these notions became now) texts in the original. And this is the case when the usual advice ‘don’t check every single unknown word, just try to get the gist of the text, its main idea’ simply doesn’t work. After all, if you’re aiming at ‘simply getting the gist’ you’re better off with reading the translation. You open the original precisely to savor hidden nuances lost in translation.

So, I wonder if anybody else learns languages for reading classics and what is your approach to vocabulary? I’m aware of Alexander Arguelles’s talk ‘Reading Literature in Foreign Languages’ but I wonder if others use different techniques.

A couple of words about my own experience. Over the years I’ve come to the conclusion that it is vocabulary (and not grammar) that is the major impediment for mastering a language (it is definitely true when your only goal is reading). Just think about it: if all you care is reading, you don’t need to worry about remembering the gender of nous, morphologal and grammar rules. Passive knowledge is enough: you just need to recognize grammar rules in a sentence but you don’t need to know then for production (writing and speaking). Hell, you don’t even need to think about developing listening skills (the hardest to master) and pronunciation, although my experience shows that some basic knowledge of pronunciation and the use of audiobooks (coupled with reading out-loud time and then) accelerates your progress dramatically.

When it comes to philosophy, you can get to a comfortable level fairly quickly. Philosophical vocabulary is quite limited in comparison to prose works and poetry. For instance, Aristotle’s Metaphysics has around 3k unique words while Spinoza’s Ethics has only 2k. Given the fact that reading philosophy is always rereading (quite often slow rereading) you can internalize the vocabulary almost naturally. The difficulty of reading such texts stems from the philosophical ideas not from the language itself.

Fiction is a totally different beast though. In this case you major impediment is a vast vocabulary you need master in order to read comfortably. I mean, it really has to be huuuuge and if you’re naive enough to think that extensive reading will help you, I have bad news for you: it won’t. Just check the number of unique words in Moby Dick and the number of hapaxes there.
So, you really need to come up with some system in order to address this issue effectively.

My approach is the following. I have an original book on my kindle app (I prefer to use iPad since e-link readers are not that good when you need to use pop-up dictionary often) and a printed translation next to it. I read the translation first (a paragraph, a page, a chapter — depending on the difficulty of the text and my current knowledge of L2), then I read the original checking new words by using pop-up dictionary (quite often Russian translations are too loose or downright incorrect). I underline new words in the app (adding a translation, if the build-in dictionary doesn’t have it) and when I start a new session next day (or when I a have free time, since the app is synchronized, I can always open the same book on my iPhone when I’m standing in the line etc.) I try to go through the new vocabulary (I tried to implement flash cards, but I’m either too lazy or disorganized for that) before I start reading a new portion of text. If I happen to have an audiobook, I listen and relisten to the sections I’ve already read while working my dog.

This system has been working for me for some years now, yet, once all professional life switched to online thanks to COVID, I would love to limit my screen time. Besides, it seems to me that classical works beg for reading them in print but if, for instance, I can easily read Sartre’s Being and Nothingness, reading Proust without dictionary would still be a challenge. But e-readers are a new thing and I’m sure that people somehow read classics before. And I wonder how did they approach the vocabulary issue.

Again, this is the question about reading the texts you really care, so the advice 'relax and just take Proust/Musil etc. in the original' simply doesn't work here.
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Re: How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

Postby Longinus » Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:11 pm

I also am interested in languages primarily for reading literature, and I completely agree with all your points about vocabulary.

Are you familiar with David James' Goldlist method? It gets you away from the computer screen and emphasizes vocabulary. I think it works well for literature, I am using it right now to read Котлован. David also makes a lot of the same points that you do in your post.

If you are not familiar with it, there are doubtless numerous discussions of it on this forum. But to get started, here are some links:

https://huliganov.tv/

Click on the main title bar where it says "Goldlist Method", and it will bring up a series of essays explaining it. David tends to be rather verbose and meandering, but in a charming way. If you'd like something more concise, Lydia Machova wrote a well-organized short summary of the method, available as a pdf from her website: https://www.languagementoring.com/goldlist/success/

David James also has a literature-based drill for advanced learners using the Goldlist method: https://huliganov.tv/2015/11/08/advanced-learners-literature-drill-advanced-drill-with-the-goldlist-method/
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Re: How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

Postby lusan » Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:24 pm

Enhancing extensive reading for French literature. What I do:

1. Use a paper book. There is something magical on physical objects that seems to help me.
2. Write down on a card those words that I don't know while reading. I plan to read about 20 pags/day.
3. Transfer the words to an Anki deck with a phrase for each unknow word, mostly obtained from Reverso.
4. I check rarely in the dictionary. Finish the book and go to another. I prefer novels because as you said, non-fiction books have limited vocabulary set.

Front side: French sentence plus audio.
Back side: English
Unknown/Translations are colored red.

Since I began about 1 year ago, I have collected ~800 cards and have 80 % matured ones. I see 10 new cards/day. It seems to work to on increasing my reading vocabulary -which is NOT my French listening/speaking one. For Active, I would prefer hammering in FSI.

Let's say that I get 3600 words/years and I keep 80 %. In 5 years, that would be ~15,000 words. I did something similar when I studied Polish. No bad.
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Re: How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

Postby Lemus » Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:39 pm

I would also add that sometimes it is easy to forget that it is not purely a vocabulary or language challenge. I attempted to read A Hundred Years of Solitude in the original Spanish and was devoted in writing down words I didn't know and putting them into Anki. Yet I still found myself getting lost frequently and eventually abandoned the effort.

I later told a Colombian friend about this and she said that even in Colombia they would not simply read the book without also drawing an extensive family tree for the various characters (many of whom have the exact same names). What was getting in my way was not so much the Spanish vocabulary, so much as forgetting that even native speakers sometimes need some other formats of help with such challenging texts.

I share this just to say that to anyone going for a major classic text, don't be embarrassed if you need some sort of additional support. Get the annotated edition! Plenty of native speakers would.
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Re: How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

Postby tungemål » Sat Jan 23, 2021 6:02 pm

I don't learn languages to be able to read canonical works, even if I understand that motivation. But I've read some classic works, for instance Der Sandmann in German. It's not too hard to read, but at the time it was challenging for me, and I looked up everything.

I am thinking that when you are at an advanced level, you'll want to enjoy the reading so that I doesn't become a chore. If I read in German or Spanish now, I read for pleasure. I will look up words, not all but important ones. I don't make a system of flashcards or any other review system. After all, if you encounter unique words (hapax, that is a word I learned now), why is it important to make such an effort to memorise it when you might not meet it again?

Looking up words with the kindle is very easy. What is it that you don't like about e-ink readers?
einzelne wrote:...
My approach is the following. I have an original book on my kindle app (I prefer to use iPad since e-link readers are not that good when you need to use pop-up dictionary often) and a printed translation next to it. I read the translation first (a paragraph, a page, a chapter — depending on the difficulty of the text and my current knowledge of L2), then I read the original checking new words by using pop-up dictionary (quite often Russian translations are too loose or downright incorrect). I underline new words in the app (adding a translation, if the build-in dictionary doesn’t have it) and when I start a new session next day (or when I a have free time, since the app is synchronized, I can always open the same book on my iPhone when I’m standing in the line etc.) I try to go through the new vocabulary (I tried to implement flash cards, but I’m either too lazy or disorganized for that) before I start reading a new portion of text. If I happen to have an audiobook, I listen and relisten to the sections I’ve already read while working my dog.
...
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Re: How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

Postby lusan » Sat Jan 23, 2021 8:05 pm

Lemus wrote:I would also add that sometimes it is easy to forget that it is not purely a vocabulary or language challenge. I attempted to read A Hundred Years of Solitude in the original Spanish and was devoted in writing down words I didn't know and putting them into Anki. Yet I still found myself getting lost frequently and eventually abandoned the effort.

I later told a Colombian friend about this and she said that even in Colombia they would not simply read the book without also drawing an extensive family tree for the various characters (many of whom have the exact same names). What was getting in my way was not so much the Spanish vocabulary, so much as forgetting that even native speakers sometimes need some other formats of help with such challenging texts.

I share this just to say that to anyone going for a major classic text, don't be embarrassed if you need some sort of additional support. Get the annotated edition! Plenty of native speakers would.


That is a very tough book to read, not only because of vocabulary, but also because it is so musical. If I were learning Spanish, I would stay away form the heavy guns till be really grounded in the language.
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Re: How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

Postby einzelne » Sat Jan 23, 2021 9:01 pm

Longinus, yes, I know about this method. But, again, just like with flashcards, I couldn’t develop the habit and stick to it. Personally, I find it more effective to go through the new vocabulary on pages I read before, checking the translation if I forgot the meaning and then speaking out loud the sentence (or a part of the sentence with a new word) without looking into the text as if I’m addressing someone.

But kudos for reading Platonov in the original! This is my favorite author (I’m rereading him now, together with a bunch of critical studies of his work) and every time I complain that my English is not good enough to read Shakespeare or Milton without dictionary, I remind myself that I at least can enjoy Platonov which, I guess, must be super challenging for non-native speakers given his twisted Russian (there’s a very interesting dissertation about his language А.П. Цветков “ЯЗЫК А.П. ПЛАТОНОВА” (THE LANGUAGE OF A. PLATONOV which is available online).

lusan, as I mentioned, I personally cannot stand flashcards, especially Anki, but great that it works for you! But since I started to read on Kindle app I started to track all new words I come across. It is then that I started to realize how huge you vocabulary has to be when you’re aiming at comfort reading of literary works in a foreign language. For instance, just La peste gave me 1300 new words in French. So, a pace 800 words per year simply doesn’t work for me. I think for passive vocabulary, Anki is an overkill.

tungemål, well I guess, we have different motivations for learning languages then. I would simply mention that the idea that “the advanced level = only fun and no chore” significantly lowered my progress in foreign languages. For instance, I never used flashcards to master most-frequent words of grammar rules. Once you start to read original works you meet them basically every day. But it took me a while to understand that if you want to progress in a language at the advanced level you have to implement some system for reviewing new vocabulary (so, basically, you have to act as if you were a beginner). As for hapaxes, again it depend on the text. First, it depends on their density. Imagine that the subject and the verb in the sentence are hapaxes. It basically renders the sentence obscure. And then, again, a hapax doesn’t necessary mean some low frequency or obscure word. Sometimes it can be a pretty common word which a native speaker would immediately recognize without any problem. It’s just the author used it only once in a novel and that means that you don’t have enough repetitions to see it again. So you can rely on extensive reading. Finally, it is good to work with a text intensively, but you work with it closely for a reason: you want to reread it in the future and you hope that next time it won’t be a chore (or, in case of plays of, say, Shakespeare you would like to see film adaptation and enjoy it).

As for Kindle vs Kindle app, iPad is simply faster in comparison to e-link. And when you use the pop-up dictionary often (as it often the case with canonical works) you don’t want to waste your precious time. Besides, in the app, I can use different colors for highlighting and I can alway check how often the new word appears in the text — it helps to prioritize the repetition of certain words.
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Re: How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

Postby cpnlsn88 » Fri Feb 26, 2021 12:59 am

A subset of language learners have as a goal to read specific pieces of literature (this is an area of language learning that might expand if it could be better catered for). This is definitely feasible and because it's so focused learners want to get to the destination as soon as possible.

If it's possible and indeed feasible then quite a lot more people might pursue this because accessing culturally important works is important to many people.

The challenge is the leap in vocabulary which might put the destination out of reach for many. Certainly the curve of vocab learning risks being very steep but some things can help.

Apart from using a Kindle or other such device the problem can be attacked from two ends:

1. Make the reading easier by a variety of means. Choose shorter and easier works, works you already know or read with a translation in to your first language, find a working summary of what you're reading. Here one can think "Harry Potter" but it doesn't need to be HP and can be other things depending on your tastes and interests.

2. Finding ways of expanding vocab to allow classical works to be read with ease. Kindle is likely to make these more accessible but here are some ideas that might help:

- do more - a lot more - at the lower level (the more exposure, the more the vocab and grammar gets repeated and embedded)
- do different genres. Obviously you will be led by your interest but think about expanding your horizons: poetry, science, science fiction, philosophy, essays, songs, history and so on)
- as soon as you're able to, listening input can be good for vocab acquisition. The advantage is you can listen and note as you're going along (without having to interrupt reading and having to put down a book or e-reader).

Do as much vocab learning as you need or want! Use a method you enjoy; if it's a pain, give it up. I have good experiences from Anki but wouldn't insist on it and indeed it might not even be the best approach (if if you read a lot you'll read in repetition common words frequently in context - the danger of SRS is spending a lot of time reviewing what doesn't occur too often - if you encounter a word once every five years, is there much point knowing it?).

I strongly advocate enjoyment as your true guide. If you hate it it will degrade your soul and you'll resent it without getting to the promised land. With enjoyment you will keep going and even partial progress will be its own reward and I think that doing this, you are more likely to cope with not knowing every word.

Enjoyment does not lead to a single path. In most cases accepting or embracing uncertainty and ambiguity leads to a more enjoyable experience but my experience with German was the opposite. I enjoy collecting German words and reviewing them in anki (with long spaces between reviews). I'm not saying this is what you should do, usually you shouldn't unless it's something you enjoy (like I do). It's probably a bad idea generally, justified only by the fact I enjoy this.

Grammar is a different story. Largely it takes care of itself with a large amount of input. Small amounts of grammar specifically for readers can be helpful in small doses.
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Re: How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

Postby risbolle » Fri Feb 26, 2021 6:40 am

einzelne wrote:So, I wonder if anybody else learns languages for reading classics and what is your approach to vocabulary?

I can certainly relate, and thanks for the discussion.

The one thing I'd swear by is a "good" multilingual dictionary for the bulk of looking up. This can make for a gruelling experience for sure, but I find that it pays off in the end. I'm mostly thinking about the risks of getting things lost in translation, and the idea is to avoid translation in the first place. I understand this is debatable and highly subjective.

If you do use a bilingual X to Y dictionary: I suspect that the closer X is to Y, the less important the above point may become, the primary reason being a closer match between "semantic boxes" occupied by the corresponding entries. For a specific example, I find English more efficient than Russian when translating from Germanic and even Romance languages (as a rule; exceptions do occur).
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Re: How do you go about vocabulary while reading ‘classical’ works?

Postby DaveAgain » Fri Feb 26, 2021 7:29 am

If there are a lot of unknown words, I prefer to use a parallel text. If are only a few unknown words, I either write them down, and look them up at the end of the chapter/session or in the case of an eBook I look them up as I go.
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