Der, die when referring to people in German

[tacerto1018]

Hi alle,

I have a quick German question. Many times now I have seen German sentences that have used 'der' or 'die' as a third person pronoun, as in the example "Der ist mit den Mülleimern beschäftigt" (Der here is referring to "Der Hausmeister'). My question is: why wouldn't we use 'er' here instead of 'der'? My understanding is that der is the definite article, whereas er is the third person pronoun.

Danke schön!

[golyplot]

That's just how they do it in German. Why do we take medicine for a cough instead of against a cough?

[Dragon27]

Just look in the dictionary. "Der" can be an article, a relative pronoun or a demonstrative pronoun.

[Nogon]

That's just how they do it in German.

But we don't do it always. It depends on the situation. If a friend asked me about my sibling, I'd say "der" or "die", while to a customer at work asking about my boss, I'd refer to my boss as "er" or "sie", "er/sie" being more formal than "der/die".

[tomos1729]

Oh, this is very very subtle I believe (good luck getting an answer off a native-speaker!). I think, but I'm not sure, it's used when referring to someone who was just mentioned by another speaker, but I'm really not sure. Try this hypothesis out for the next few examples you meet, I'd like to know the answer myself!

I must admit though, I don't think you need to worry about this usage. It's the kind of thing that only comes (or I believe should come) from exposure, whilst up until that point you should just use the subject pronoun (since that will never sound wrong when used instead of the article, but the converse is not true). I'm very sure I always use it correctly even though I never studied the distinction.

Hmm, maybe there is also the "colloquial" aspect. It definitely sounds more colloquial with the article, but I really think there's more to it than that.

[jeff_lindqvist]

How about emphasis? Der ist... = HE (is the one who)...

[tomos1729]

How about emphasis? Der ist... = HE (is the one who)...

No. (But it's often a decent first guess, just unfortunately incorrect:/ )

[alaart]

Oh, this is very very subtle I believe (good luck getting an answer off a native-speaker!). I think, but I'm not sure, it's used when referring to someone who was just mentioned by another speaker, but I'm really not sure. Try this hypothesis out for the next few examples you meet, I'd like to know the answer myself!

Ah, yes this sounds about right. So without knowing the grammar, just from my German, some examples.

1) relative pronoun

Der Mann, der die Blumen gegossen hat, sah ganz schön traurig aus. Das lag vielleicht an der Vase, die er zerstört hat.
- The man, that watered the flowers, looked quiet sad. Maybe the reason is the flower pot, that he broke.

So here, it is a demonstrative pronoun, repeating the gender of the word before. So "Vase", flower pot, is feminine - so it is "die Vase", - sorry for the bad example, it is "der" here, because of dative case I presume, all female articles can become "der" in some declinations. Of course there is also the "das" demonstrativ pronoun.

2) Using er/sie/es to replace the noun in subsequent sentences

Der Kölner Dom ist eine römisch-katholische Kirche in Köln [...]. Er ist die Kathedrale des Erzbistums Köln [...].
- The Kölner Dom is a roman church in Cologne. It is the cathedral of the archdiocese Cologne [...]

So I just used a wikipedia sentence example. This is basically like English, avoiding repetition.

3) using der/die/das to something previously referred to by the speaking partner
I think this can only used in speech.

A: Kann ich deinen Vater sprechen?
B: Tut mir leid, der ist gerade arbeiten und nicht zu Hause.
- Can I speak with your father? I'm sorry, he is working and not at home.

Like explained by tomos1729, used in response to something previously mentioned.

A: Und demletzt habe ich Karina getroffen. - oh and recently I met Karina.
B: Karina? Wer ist Karina? - Karina? Who is Karina?
C: Karina? Die, die die Schule abgebrochen hat? - Karina? The one that dropped out of school? (literally: Is she the one, who dropped out of school?)

Ok, the triple "die" here. So the first 1 is referring to Karina, the person the speaking partner mentioned. The second "die" is the relative pronoun, and the third one is the article for school.

---

So your example, what is the difference:

Der Hausmeister Fritz? Er ist mit den Mülleimern beschäftigt. - "and what happened to the janitor Fritz in my story you might ask? Well, he is busy with the garbage bins" - one could use "der" here too instead.

Der Hausmeister Fritz? Der ist mit den Mülleimern beschäftigt. - Janitor Fritz? He is busy with the garbage bins.

We wouldn't say the first one, it sounds very much like written style. Like a narrator talking to the reader, that is how I get it if I hear it like this. The second one is the normal answer to a question in an every day situation, or even in written style you could use it if you introduced the question yourself - but here you have this weird option of using "er/sie/es" as well.

I hope I could help, this explanation comes totally from feeling and might be wrong. Maybe there is some grammar explanation out there, that can explain it better.

[alaart]

How about emphasis? Der ist... = HE (is the one who)...

I would use "er" for emphasis like in English "he":

Trump denkt ja, ER sei der größte.
- and trump is thinking, that HE is the greatest.

[tomos1729]

Oh, this is very very subtle I believe (good luck getting an answer off a native-speaker!). I think, but I'm not sure, it's used when referring to someone who was just mentioned by another speaker, but I'm really not sure. Try this hypothesis out for the next few examples you meet, I'd like to know the answer myself!

Ah, yes this sounds about right. So without knowing the grammar, just from my German, some examples.

1) relative pronoun

Der Mann, der die Blumen gegossen hat, sah ganz schön traurig aus. Das lag vielleicht an der Vase, die er zerstört hat.
- The man, that watered the flowers, looked quiet sad. Maybe the reason is the flower pot, that he broke.

So here, it is a demonstrative pronoun, repeating the gender of the word before. So "Vase", flower pot, is feminine - so it is "die Vase", - sorry for the bad example, it is "der" here, because of Akk. case I presume, all female articles can become "der" in some declinations. Of course there is also the "das" demonstrativ pronoun.

2) Using er/sie/es to replace the noun in subsequent sentences

Der Kölner Dom ist eine römisch-katholische Kirche in Köln [...]. Er ist die Kathedrale des Erzbistums Köln [...].
- The Kölner Dom is a roman church in Cologne. It is the cathedral of the archdiocese Cologne [...]

So I just used a wikipedia sentence example. This is basically like English, avoiding repetition.

3) using der/die/das to something previously referred to by the speaking partner
I think this can only used in speech.

A: Kann ich deinen Vater sprechen?
B: Tut mir leid, der ist gerade arbeiten und nicht zu Hause.
- Can I speak with your father? I'm sorry, he is working and not at home.

Like explained by tomos1729, used in response to something previously mentioned.

A: Und demletzt habe ich Karina getroffen. - oh and recently I met Karina.
B: Karina? Wer ist Karina? - Karina? Who is Karina?
C: Karina? Die, die die Schule abgebrochen hat? - Karina? The one that dropped out of school? (literally: Is she the one, who dropped out of school?)

Ok, the triple "die" here. So the first 1 is referring to Karina, the person the speaking partner mentioned. The second "die" is the relative pronoun, and the third one is the article for school.

---

So your example, what is the difference:

Der Hausmeister Fritz? Er ist mit den Mülleimern beschäftigt. - "and what happened to the janitor Fritz in my story you might ask? Well, he is busy with the garbage bins" - one could use "der" here too instead.

Der Hausmeister Fritz? Der ist mit den Mülleimern beschäftigt. - Janitor Fritz? He is busy with the garbage bins.

We wouldn't say the first one, it sounds very much like written style. Like a narrator talking to the reader, that is how I get it if I hear it like this. The second one is the normal answer to a question in an every day situation, or even in written style you could use it if you introduced the question yourself - but here you have this weird option of using "er/sie/es" as well.

I hope I could help, this explanation comes totally from feeling and might be wrong. Maybe there is some grammar explanation out there, that can explain it better.

I want to clean up your answer:D (just to avoid possible confusions)

I think 1 and 2 are already known to the OP. The case for the vase in 1 is dative, not accusative (just want to avoid possible confusions). (And shouldn't 3 be deinem or ansprechen?)