Random interesting things I found in the English language

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Dragon27
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Re: Random interesting things I found in the English language

Postby Dragon27 » Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:10 pm

Le Baron wrote:It only 'disappears' as a final consonant if compared to the very pronounced 'r' elsewhere in other language, but it's really there. Otherwise 'bar' would be 'ba'!

R after A is actually a good case for observing the disappearance of post-vocalic R. In many other combinations 'vowel' + R it turns into schwa /ə/ (so 'near' is pronounced /nɪə/), which makes it distinct from the R-less words, but for some combinations of 'vowel' + R it turns into a 'long vowel', creating homophonous pairs with some R-less words (that have the corresponding long vowel). It works for words with /ɔ/ + R and, /ɑ/ + R, (so when words are pronounced in isolation /ɔ/ + R turns into /ɔː/ and /ɑ/ + R into /ɑː/). Some examples are: 'saw' - 'sore' (both sound like /sɔː/ in non-rhotic varieties of British English) for /ɔ/, and 'spar' - 'spa' (/spɑː/) for /ɑ/.
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Re: Random interesting things I found in the English language

Postby tungemål » Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:29 pm

rdearman wrote:I can kind of hear an R from the first guy. But the rest are saying SAW. I don't hear an R.

I think you've got blind for your own language. That is, British natives are so used to it that they don't notice it. Clearly "sawrit" from all of them. I became aware of this after watching a few videos with R. Simcott - he also says this.

I'm not complaining about this habit - but it's very unnatural and kind of funny for me.

Dragon27 wrote:...
R after A is actually a good case for observing the disappearance of post-vocalic R. In many other combinations 'vowel' + R it turns into schwa /ə/ (so 'near' is pronounced /nɪə/), which makes it distinct from the R-less words ...

Good points. This could be why we think we hear an "R" when it's actually not there. It turns into a vowel. By the way the same thing happens in Danish.
Last edited by tungemål on Sat Jul 03, 2021 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tungemål
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Re: Random interesting things I found in the English language

Postby tungemål » Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:47 pm

Dragon27 wrote:Some examples with "saw it" (found through Youglish)


Youglish is a handy tool - you can search for US or UK sources. As far as I can tell the Americans "sawit" while the British mostly "saw rit".
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Re: Random interesting things I found in the English language

Postby smallwhite » Fri Jul 02, 2021 6:03 pm

rdearman wrote:
Dragon27 wrote:Some examples with "saw it" (found through Youglish):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNmRr-BYnxA&t=659s
Tom Rivett-Carnac (born Hammersmith, London), says "saw it" multiple times (and I personally can hear R), starting from 11:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxt_IV1qcIs&t=755s
Claudia Boleyn (Kent, England, which is Southeastern England), says "I saw it" (somewhere at 12:35) and I can hear R again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs6h7w91BU0&t=382
Emily Burns (i don't know, probably London), again, "but also other people who saw it" (6:22) with an intrusive R


I can kind of hear an R from the first guy. But the rest are saying SAW. I don't hear an R.

I hear very clear R's from all of them from my laptop speakers.

> (so 'near' is pronounced /nɪə/)

I remember high school roll call in Sydney, Australia... some students answered "heee" /hi:/, others answered "heAH" /hi:a:/

Loved it as well.
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Re: Random interesting things I found in the English language

Postby Cenwalh » Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:13 pm

tungemål wrote:What do you think about this intrusive R? As a learner who aims for a British pronunciation, should I also do this or is it a "mistake"?

'British' pronunciation is quite wide, and there are Britons who speak with and without this intrusive R. However, if it is a standard 'BBC English' or modern RP you're aiming for (I think how RP is described in literature isn't very common anymore but that's by the by), then I would certainly say it's correct to incorporate this intrusive R into your pronunciation. I speak with something like RP, and I struggle to say 'saw it' without adding an R in the middle.

However, like most non-rhotic Brits, I had no idea this even existed until I was told about it by a non-native. Unlike rdearman though, I can perceive it if I'm looking out for it.
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Re: Random interesting things I found in the English language

Postby Le Baron » Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:52 am

In general I also don't have a rhotic-r, but it crops up in much the way tungemål described. Such as 'purrit in' (put it in). As in the classic northern idiom: you want all your own road and a bag fer't purrit in!' Also known as having your cake and eating it.
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Re: Random interesting things I found in the English language

Postby tungemål » Sat Jul 03, 2021 8:35 am

Cenwalh wrote:'British' pronunciation is quite wide, and there are Britons who speak with and without this intrusive R. However, if it is a standard 'BBC English' or modern RP you're aiming for (I think how RP is described in literature isn't very common anymore but that's by the by), then I would certainly say it's correct to incorporate this intrusive R into your pronunciation. I speak with something like RP, and I struggle to say 'saw it' without adding an R in the middle.


I'm not preoccupied with achieving 'perfect RP'. I find the Northern English accents very charming. However many British dialects exhange the "t" for a glottal stop, something that I find hard (or strenuous) to do. Having RP as a guideline might be the easiest.

I have no ambitions of sounding any different than a Norwegian speaking English. So why should I care? Well take the word "better" as an example. You need to make a decision on a US or a UK model of pronunciation. My default pronunciation used to be a hard "t" and the english "r" that I learned in school: [bet-r].

But there are no English dialects that pronounce it like that (as far as I know).
From Wiktionary:
US: [ˈbɛɾɚ] - the "t" is softened
UK RP [ˈbɛtʰə] - hard "t" but the "r" disappears
UK dialects [ˈbeʔə] - glottal stop for "t", no "r"
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Re: Random interesting things I found in the English language

Postby Le Baron » Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:55 pm

It's an interesting thread. I remarked on rdearman's log that when I heard his accent on a video I thought it was a west country accent (he says other people have said Irish). The thing is it didn't particularly surprise me to hear a pronounced 'r', the chances are you'll run into someone with an accent where it is pronounced as much as not. There are plenty all over: north, south west, also parts of Wales.

There are loads of these sorts of things, like e.g. people who say 'only' as 'oh-knee'.. :lol: You hear that all over the place, it's prominent in Norfolk.

That 'r' business in the particular two words you chose - saw it, or 'saw him/her' - is too common to consider as merely regional. It's no different than the 't' used in French in something like a-t-il un chien? Otherwise you have to stop in the middle of the two words and this runs throughout the entire language.
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Re: Random interesting things I found in the English language

Postby tungemål » Wed Dec 28, 2022 8:10 pm

Fain

Reading Dickens I encountered some new (for me) words. Like fain.

It's an old germanic word meaning happy, glad. It exists in Norwegian and Swedish as obsolete words, allthough I don't think I've ever heard it.

NO: fegjen
SW: fägen

Is "fain" still used in English or is it now only found in old literature?
Last edited by tungemål on Wed Dec 28, 2022 10:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Random interesting things I found in the English language

Postby Amandine » Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:40 pm

I’ve never heard or heard of “fain”. In context I presume I could guess its meaning but on its own I couldn’t.
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