Random interesting things I found in the English language

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Dragon27
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Re: Random interesting things I found in the English language

Postby Dragon27 » Wed Apr 07, 2021 10:07 am

It's not a "rolled" (if by "rolled" you mean "trilled") r, it's a tap or flap sound:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flapping
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_de ... _and_flaps
It is similar to the sound of a single "r" in Spanish (although some phoneticians may differentiate them), but the sound of geminated "rr" is a bit more difficult (since it doesn't consist of just a single flap).
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Re: Random interesting things I found in the English language

Postby tungemål » Fri Jul 02, 2021 8:41 am

Intrusive R

Another pronunciation thing. I've been aware of this for a while and would like to hear what people think about this.

In British English the "R" disappears unless it is followed by a vowel: for instance "car" is pronounced without an "R". However if the next word begins with a vowel the "R" (might?) reappear: the car in the garage.

This apparently lead to an intrusive "R" that shouldn't be there but that appears between two words when the first one ends on a vowel and the second one start with a vowel.
Example: I saw it -> "I saw-r-it".

What do you think about this intrusive R? As a learner who aims for a British pronunciation, should I also do this or is it a "mistake"?

If you want to read about this on wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linking_and_intrusive_R
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Re: Random interesting things I found in the English language

Postby rdearman » Fri Jul 02, 2021 9:39 am

I have lived in Britain for over 30 years and I have never heard anyone not pronounce the R in car regardless of the following vowel. I have however, heard this a lot in American English (especially the east-coast accent). For example, in Boston people who "park thei ka in the parken lot", or who "had a hat attack" when referring to a myocardial infarction. Your other example is very American as well, "I-sar-it".

Having said that, the British Isles is made up many, many different accents and dialects – more than 37 dialects at the last count. So there may be places where this is true, but I've never heard what you're describing. Where did you get this information from?

EDIT: I had a look at the Wikipedia and the examples they gave are both from the Liverpool / Manchester accents. Which would explain why I've not really heard this since I live in the south. But personally, I wouldn't try to replicate it.

2nd EDIT: Also I was reading a lot about accents and pronunciation by a professor Olle Kjellin and one of the suggestions which came up on his site was to find once person, actor/actress who has the accent you want (naturally, not faking for a film) and try to speak like them. Again, I wouldn't recommend Noel Gallagher, or Prince Charles, but it is up to you. :D
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Re: Random interesting things I found in the English language

Postby Dragon27 » Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:16 am

Some examples with "saw it" (found through Youglish):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNmRr-BYnxA&t=659s
Tom Rivett-Carnac (born Hammersmith, London), says "saw it" multiple times (and I personally can hear R), starting from 11:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxt_IV1qcIs&t=755s
Claudia Boleyn (Kent, England, which is Southeastern England), says "I saw it" (somewhere at 12:35) and I can hear R again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs6h7w91BU0&t=382
Emily Burns (i don't know, probably London), again, "but also other people who saw it" (6:22) with an intrusive R
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Re: Random interesting things I found in the English language

Postby smallwhite » Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:47 am

> What do you think about this intrusive R?

Love it.

I hear it in Australia.

Don’t Americans do it? I would have thought they roll their R’s so much / so naturally they are the ones more likely to overdo it.

I don’t think you need to deliberately learn it. I think you’ll make the same mistake naturally when you’ve gotten the target accent down pat and pat enough. If you love it like I do, at least.
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Re: Random interesting things I found in the English language

Postby rdearman » Fri Jul 02, 2021 12:11 pm

Dragon27 wrote:Some examples with "saw it" (found through Youglish):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNmRr-BYnxA&t=659s
Tom Rivett-Carnac (born Hammersmith, London), says "saw it" multiple times (and I personally can hear R), starting from 11:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxt_IV1qcIs&t=755s
Claudia Boleyn (Kent, England, which is Southeastern England), says "I saw it" (somewhere at 12:35) and I can hear R again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs6h7w91BU0&t=382
Emily Burns (i don't know, probably London), again, "but also other people who saw it" (6:22) with an intrusive R


I can kind of hear an R from the first guy. But the rest are saying SAW. I don't hear an R.
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Re: Random interesting things I found in the English language

Postby chove » Fri Jul 02, 2021 2:57 pm

I hear it as "sawr" too. "I saw rit" Or at least compared to how I usually think Londoners don't say the Rs in most words that "should" have them.
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Re: Random interesting things I found in the English language

Postby Dragon27 » Fri Jul 02, 2021 3:29 pm

rdearman wrote:I can kind of hear an R from the first guy. But the rest are saying SAW. I don't hear an R.

I could maybe compromise on the second one (not sure), but the third one is very clear to me.

Just my opinion, I'm not a trained phonetician, could always be mistaken.
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Re: Random interesting things I found in the English language

Postby Le Baron » Fri Jul 02, 2021 4:17 pm

tungemål wrote:Intrusive R

Another pronunciation thing. I've been aware of this for a while and would like to hear what people think about this.

In British English the "R" disappears unless it is followed by a vowel: for instance "car" is pronounced without an "R". However if the next word begins with a vowel the "R" (might?) reappear: the car in the garage.


It only 'disappears' as a final consonant if compared to the very pronounced 'r' elsewhere in other language, but it's really there. Otherwise 'bar' would be 'ba'! Also it remains in force before 'y', which of course acts as a vowel sound in such words as bury, carry, folly..etc. Also the r is fully pronounced in certain regions - West country, parts of Lancashire running into Derbyshire, bits of Yorkshire. In those places words like 'bore', 'core', 'floor', 'door' have a tangible 'r' or it melts into 'ry' sound, but in RP English and a lot of other regions it is imperceptible, even though it precedes a vowel.

There's a class element at play for some regions and speakers who are strongly influenced by dialect can have a pronounced 'r'. Sometimes you hear a schwa 'e' on the end of words with an 'r' followed by a vowel. Also a lot on words ending with 'w'. The most common cases of 'saw-r-it are cockney and the north of the England.

In general it's probably best to just follow RP pronunciation.
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Re: Random interesting things I found in the English language

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Fri Jul 02, 2021 5:01 pm

tungemål wrote:Intrusive RThis apparently lead to an intrusive "R" that shouldn't be there but that appears between two words when the first one ends on a vowel and the second one start with a vowel.
Example: I saw it -> "I saw-r-it".


I read about it over 20 years ago, then heard actor Jack Davenport use it in the 1990s series "This life" ("Henrietta-r and I"). "Vodka-r and ice" seems to be a standard example. The first time I heard it IRL was in Ireland in July 2001, from an Australian guy (-Is that a bouzouki? -No, it's a mandola-r actually.). (But I've never heard any Irish natives use it.) Nowadays I hear it daily - a friend grew up in South Africa. Interestingly enough, the wiki page says "with the exception of South Africa". :? I've never heard it among Americans or Canadians.
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