ryanheise wrote:If it weren't for Duolingo, perhaps the "lazy" learner would never have put any effort into languages at all.
And from Duolingo's perspective, they can make whatever product they want to make! So it's funny to me that some people care so much. A single product simply can't satisfy all market segments, and companies will always receive complaints from the other market segments that are not being served. But it is actually up to the company to say no to those other market segments in order to build a more cohesive and intuitive product for the target market.
Anyway, there are OTHER products out there in the world, aren't there? Just use the ones you like : - )
That sounds nice in theory, but the problem is that Duo has got such an omnipresent marketing, that it is a bit hard to avoid it.
People care so much, because Duo had so much promise and decided to go in a certain way, that is a bit against the original idea (it was originally meant to be a good learning tool).
Other market segments? Duo has overshadowed everything. It has unfortunately become the synonyme for independent language learning on the internet, which is very unfortunate.
I think people care so much, because some of us are fed up with seeing tons of well meaning but mislead learners online, asking basic stuff, and getting discouraged because all their supposed "hard work" has been almost worthless. And because we get underestimated, when we admit learning without a teacher, as everybody imagines as just as the Duo users. And because it is hard to recommend newbie learners other tools, as Duo's marketing is simply everywhere.
rdearman wrote:If I had to bet on someone with resolve and grit who is thick as a brick, or a super intelligent lazy person I would bet on the person with grit every time.
I don't use Duolingo but I can from the brief look at it see that they do have a community of users. And that community is also recommending other places for example clozemaster or other apps. So I suspect that the duolingo marketing is been corrected by the users such that anyone who thinks that exclusive use of Duolingo will teach them and language is being quickly corrected.
So I think whatever the drawbacks of the management of Duolingo the community of Duolingo seems to be a good counter balance to the effect of capitalism on the website.
Thank you. I would bet on the person with grit too, unless they were wasting they grit on playing with Duolingo.
The community has some better members, but it varies. When I was leaving, the toxic part was clearly prevailing. Duo may not do as much open marketing about the more problematic issues, but it certainly doesn't stop the misleading or toxic currents in the community. When I saw so many people wishing others to burn out and fail at learning, just because they were getting "too many league points" (isn't that the point of the leagues? to get many points?) and similar stuff, I was disgusted. And even those recommending the other resources usually recommend them as if the other resources were supplements to Duo instead of the opposite.
Saim wrote:I don't "personally" know any Duolingo user who is actually under the delusion that they'll become a fluent speaker just by just using this app.
Why does every discussion on Duolingo need to include this red herring?
The issue isn't whether Duolingo can or can't bring you to fluency, and the criticism of Duolingo is not that people think that. The question is whether it's at all a good way to teach you some basics of the language."Wouldn't it be great if every learner were a serious learner?"
I certainly don't think so.People can be casual learners if they want to, and should we really turn them away by telling them they need to get serious and stop enjoying this gamification stuff? Only if someone expresses that they want to be a serious learner should we treat them as such, otherwise let them be.
When my friends who aren't language enthusiasts talk about Duolingo I say it's not bad for the basics but you'll have to move on from it eventually.
When my students talk about Duolingo I say that I'm not a huge fan of it but it'll probably help if you're also taking classes.
When on online language learning forums I talk completely differently.
Thanks for pointing out the red herring! Really, nobody is criticising Duo because it is a beginner's course. It would be as much of a nonsense as criticising other courses for this. It is being criticised for doing badly what it is meant to do, which is teaching and drilling the basics.
I am all for people being casual or serious learners, slower or faster, aiming for higher or lower levels. I just dislike it, when they are being lied to. Unfortunately, the Duo marketing, presentation, and learning mechanisms are making the most casual learners believe they are the serious learners. And that is the problem.
It creates too high expectations when it comes to the results, it doesn't motivate them to look for something else, and it makes them oblivious about what real hard work on a language really is. Be a casual learner and have fun, it's great! But something is wrong, when you come on reddit and complain like "I've been working so hard, spent 200 hours on Duolingo, how comes I cannot understand a movie yet? What podcast can I supplement Duo with? How many more hours of Duo do I need? And why are they several translations for the same verb, why is it sometimes "hago" and sometimes "haces"?"