How long do bloggers think lockdowns last?

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Re: How long do bloggers think lockdowns last?

Postby Cainntear » Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:21 pm

tarvos wrote:Then I think the problem is rather: why are you putting yourself in a situation where you are constantly exposed to this torture, when the simple thing to do is simply not pay any attention to it? I just ignore Duolingo and take it for what it is. I don't have any interest in explaining myself a hundred times either, so I just make sure that I don't.

But the numbers are so overwhelming that they're taking over every online space now. Getting out of the way of all DL learners means getting out of the way of all learners.
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Re: How long do bloggers think lockdowns last?

Postby jmar257 » Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:48 am

Cainntear wrote:
tarvos wrote:Then I think the problem is rather: why are you putting yourself in a situation where you are constantly exposed to this torture, when the simple thing to do is simply not pay any attention to it? I just ignore Duolingo and take it for what it is. I don't have any interest in explaining myself a hundred times either, so I just make sure that I don't.

But the numbers are so overwhelming that they're taking over every online space now. Getting out of the way of all DL learners means getting out of the way of all learners.

This. I'd like to partake in other language learning communities as well, but most are either dead or if they're more active, they're flooded with beginners asking things that have been written about ad nauseam. I'm under no impression that we'll change anything complaining here, but I also don't see how our complaints are invalid.
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Re: How long do bloggers think lockdowns last?

Postby eido » Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:24 am

Cainntear wrote:But the numbers are so overwhelming that they're taking over every online space now. Getting out of the way of all DL learners means getting out of the way of all learners.

I guess you can resign yourself to the role of perennial teacher, or just hide on LLORG.

I choose to hide :P
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Re: How long do bloggers think lockdowns last?

Postby tarvos » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:50 am

Cainntear wrote:
tarvos wrote:Then I think the problem is rather: why are you putting yourself in a situation where you are constantly exposed to this torture, when the simple thing to do is simply not pay any attention to it? I just ignore Duolingo and take it for what it is. I don't have any interest in explaining myself a hundred times either, so I just make sure that I don't.

But the numbers are so overwhelming that they're taking over every online space now. Getting out of the way of all DL learners means getting out of the way of all learners.


Does it? I don't feel like it does, yet.
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Re: How long do bloggers think lockdowns last?

Postby Cavesa » Mon Jul 27, 2020 11:56 am

The problem with Duo marketing is not just what it does, but also what it cleverly doesn't do. It has really lightened the "learn a language for five minutes a day in three months" type of marketing. It is more subtle. But it has trained a part of the community to do the more questionable kind of marketing for Duo, and the staff just needs not to meddle in that. The Duo community has become rather toxic and damaging to learning, that was one of the main things that drove me away completely (and the dumbing down). And it is very expansive to other communities.

I don't think anyone should waste too much time in the "water torture" of Duo admirers everywhere on the language learning internet, but sometimes, a few words of advice to a learner ready for that can help. You can usually say, whether someone is ready for some reasonable guidance, or they are a fanatic Duo believer.

People are not being taught how to learn at school (which is a huge failure) and they are under a lot of marketing pressure by the apps. Many would really like to learn, but they need the initial push to something better. They just need a bit of an encouragement that what they appreciate the most about some apps is basically what the textbooks do, just better. That their prejudices towards grammar are harming their progress, and so on.
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Re: How long do bloggers think lockdowns last?

Postby rdearman » Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:38 pm

My problem is with bloggers who are regurgitating the same old crap, and who don't even know another language. They just list 10 self improvement ideas for example and languages is always in there. Or 10 things to learn, or 10 things to make you sexier, etc. (They never seem to be able to count higher than 10)

They might be sponsored by language apps to spout this rubbish but it still an annoyance to me.

I did a "back of the fag packet" calculation (cigarette packet to Americans) and figure I have done about 700 hours of study to get to probably B2ish in French. Most of the things I have read put C2 at about the 3000 hour mark. This is a big time investment, about the number of hours required to get a degree (bachelor degree given 35 hours of work and study and 2 semesters of 15 weeks)

Yet you never see a blogger say stuff like: self improvement, easy just get a bachelor of science degree in mechanical engineering. Just download this app !
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Re: How long do bloggers think lockdowns last?

Postby lavengro » Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:41 pm

There are some accomplished language learners on this forum who have used Duolingo as a component of their language learning approach, and who have a different, more positive view of Duolingo. I am not trying to change the negative opinions of some of the senior well-respected posters in this thread who have expressed dismissive views of Duolingo, but just to point out that yours are just opinions rather than facts. And some here have opinions that are different from yours (though given the ferocity of the attack rather than debate, I do not expect many to venture into the thread).

The Duolingo-bashing on this forum used to be based on the perspective that it was using and taking advantage of volunteers to the detriment of those language learning professionals trying to earn a living at teaching a language, then when it started using paid professionals the negative criticism appeared to be that it was forsaking its volunteers. And then criticism that Duolingo says it is free but it is not free because it has the nerve to use ads to pay for its infrastructure, though oddly that criticism does not appear to be made against other similarly-free learning resources. Now the criticism is that it is somehow damaging to language learning, which with every respect seems a little frantic. Have the recent critics tried Duolingo recently? I know one of the posters here in this thread recently advised elsewhere that "I've never actually used it."

I do agree that there has been some toxicity introduced into a language learning community; unfortunately, I think it is this forum rather than the Duolingo community that has become the beneficiary of that toxicity.

I don't propose to engage further in the discussion. While I am not one of the accomplished language learners I referred to at the beginning of the post, I do really like Duolingo generally (it is stronger for some languages than others) as part of a language learning approach and experience (which for me also includes FSI, Pimsleur, in-person classes, lots of native language materials, explicit grammars, etc). But I think I will be happier staying in my own lane while engaging with this forum. And yes, because I am not completely naive, I am fully aware that this post is just an invitation for more Duolingo criticism; you're welcome.
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Re: How long do bloggers think lockdowns last?

Postby tarvos » Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:03 pm

lavengro wrote:
The Duolingo-bashing on this forum used to be based on the perspective that it was using and taking advantage of volunteers to the detriment of those language learning professionals trying to earn a living at teaching a language, then when it started using paid professionals the negative criticism appeared to be that it was forsaking its volunteers. And then criticism that Duolingo says it is free but it is not free because it has the nerve to use ads to pay for its infrastructure, though oddly that criticism does not appear to be made against other similarly-free learning resources. Now the criticism is that it is somehow damaging to language learning, which with every respect seems a little frantic. Have the recent critics tried Duolingo recently? I know one of the posters here in this thread recently advised elsewhere that "I've never actually used it."



I don't really mind Duolingo and I might even use it to fool around with certain languages, even though I have no time or interest to do so now. My point in this thread was to point out that if you're so opposed to Duolingo, just avoid the thing then. There's no need to fight hate with hate.

It wouldn't be enough for me, and I teach loads of advanced students and try to use a holistic approach when teaching. Duolingo isn't enough for that. But I don't think that contradicts your point!
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Re: How long do bloggers think lockdowns last?

Postby eido » Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:18 pm

rdearman wrote:My problem is with bloggers who are regurgitating the same old crap, and who don't even know another language. They just list 10 self improvement ideas for example and languages is always in there. Or 10 things to learn, or 10 things to make you sexier, etc. (They never seem to be able to count higher than 10)

...

Yet you never see a blogger say stuff like: self improvement, easy just get a bachelor of science degree in mechanical engineering. Just download this app !

I share the same annoyance as you. I'm always on the hunt for new resources, especially for languages that don't have many. Some of these blogs pop up when I'm trying to find said resources, and there's a momentary bit of excitement where I feel as though I might actually get somewhere, but also a certain degree of doubt. A 50/50 mix. The bloggers have my faith. And they consistently break it by not doing enough research. They solely recommend Duolingo, and if even if you're searching for a specific language, Duolingo's probably at the top of the list.

Even though Duolingo's some sort of pseudo non-profit, it has acquired its own brand name and all the trappings that come with it. People have trust in brand names, and right they should, but there are other, smaller brands that can just as easily do the job if its particular methodology gels with the user. For example, you could swap out DL for DuChinese and get a suite of Chinese learning apps with more complete grammar instruction, or just opt for a college-level course, for instance. I find that most people aren't willing to weigh pros and cons when they choose a product. In the case of language learning, they just want something fast and now to quell that learning urge. I define it as such, because a lot of people seem to be uncomfortable with having the desire to learn a language of all things. Why not something more common, like crocheting, crafting, or fixing cars?

DL is perfect for that, because you can start right away. No fees, and no commitment. It's somewhat of a way for people to brag a bit to their friends that they actually did something with their time when they met that 5-minute promise, because at least they did something. They were accountable to someone. But long-lasting interest is hard to come by. Luckily, DL doesn't specialize in that type. It seems they like to rack up users without caring about how long the users stay.

That said: back to bloggers. DL's model is easy to recommend by these lifestyle bloggers because playing the in-app games is something that virtually anyone can do, and just like reading the lifestyle blog, it's a quick serotonin rush. The first step to change is acknowledging you have a problem, after all. And after you've read that blog, signed up for DL in 2 minutes (or less), and starting playing, your stress that your life isn't going quite as it should goes away because you're distracted--not because you're actually enjoying what you're doing. From this point, there are two learners. Which one are you?
  • The one that finds language learning to be a tedium and quits the app pretty much for good, maybe coming back to it 4 years later and quitting not long after again
  • The easily addicted who spends massive amounts of time earning XP and maintaining streaks (but never actually caring much about the language itself), getting ever more tempted to buy that premium membership
These blogs get clicks by regurgitating the same thing over and over, but SEO is constantly updated as the years go by, and changing the list the bloggers curate ever so slightly along with the wording below each stock photo garners more readers because they think they're finding something unique. As more people learn how to navigate the Internet, for whatever reason not having access before, a lot of these things may not have occurred to them as things that they could participate in. So, these blogs are in a sense presenting things that are new and novel.

But for the more seasoned among us, we know there's a bigger world out they with more implications, time sinks, complexities, set-backs... and more fun if we truly seek it.

Do note I don't hate DL and I actually think their mission is great. It could use some better execution, but on the whole in this post I was critiquing its users, since an app is nothing without its base.
Last edited by eido on Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How long do bloggers think lockdowns last?

Postby rdearman » Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:22 pm

@lavengro

I honestly had no intention of creating a "Duolingo" bashing thread. I have not used Doulingo, and couldn't possibly give an honest review one way or the other, although as you said using it as a component for learning is a valid use regardless of the quality. As long as it isn't complete incorrect you can learn from just about any resource. I simply used them as an example since it was the ones most recommended by bloggers. Honestly, you could substitute any app in my opening post, anki, hellochinese, memorise, clozemaster, community college textbook even.

I'd be happy to see a well-balanced review of the pros and cons of Duolingo, since I've not used it I would find it helpful.
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