Scots Gaelic Could Die in a Decade

[Cainntear]

Gaelic has started down the "neo" road. Part of the problem this research is trying to deal with is that Gaelic bodies tend to focus on raw numbers and declare victory based on the number of kids going through an immersive schooling system that is only partially successful (in that it results in the acquisition of a grammatically and idiomatically impoverished form of the language, riddled with calqued expressions from English) in areas where Gaelic has not been a community language in centuries, if ever, while glossing over the fact that they haven't really done much to protect its status in areas where there is (was) still a broad level of language use in the community.

Things are finally changing, with Comhairle nan Eileanan Siar taking steps such as making the Gaelic for "Western Isles Council" their official name, and more recently announcing that Gaelic-medium primary schooling is now the default, with English as a non-mainstream option, but even that's problematic given the low language skills of much of the teaching staff currently on the payroll.

[galaxyrocker]

Gaelic has started down the "neo" road. Part of the problem this research is trying to deal with is that Gaelic bodies tend to focus on raw numbers and declare victory based on the number of kids going through an immersive schooling system that is only partially successful (in that it results in the acquisition of a grammatically and idiomatically impoverished form of the language, riddled with calqued expressions from English) in areas where Gaelic has not been a community language in centuries, if ever, while glossing over the fact that they haven't really done much to protect its status in areas where there is (was) still a broad level of language use in the community.

Things are finally changing, with Comhairle nan Eileanan Siar taking steps such as making the Gaelic for "Western Isles Council" their official name, and more recently announcing that Gaelic-medium primary schooling is now the default, with English as a non-mainstream option, but even that's problematic given the low language skills of much of the teaching staff currently on the payroll.

It really is extremely depressing seeing this happen in just about all minority language cases. Are there any that have avoided it? I know Basque has had some issues, though I think it's doing better at focusing on native speech, as is Welsh, though I'm still not 100% sure. I know Breton has it even worse than Irish. I wonder how things are in Occitan, or the Sámi languages? Basically, has there ever been one where a revival truly developed from the native speaking areas and worked outwards?

[Cainntear]

It really is extremely depressing seeing this happen in just about all minority language cases. Are there any that have avoided it? I know Basque has had some issues, though I think it's doing better at focusing on native speech, as is Welsh, though I'm still not 100% sure. I know Breton has it even worse than Irish. I wonder how things are in Occitan, or the Sámi languages? Basically, has there ever been one where a revival truly developed from the native speaking areas and worked outwards?

I did see a video not that long ago by an Occitan advocacy group where they had lots of people say "I'm Occitan" or "Occitan is me" or similar, and I definitely heard it being said in a 100% "French" accent, and by that I mean a French language accent, and not even a "Midi" accent -- guttural northern Rs and everything.

Every revival has the problem that enthusiasts are rarely trained language teachers, and amateur teachers give amateur results.

[guyome]

I wonder how things are in Occitan, (...)

From what I've read and heard the problems are roughly the same: loss of traditional phonology, influence of French syntax, use of Medieval words long forgotten to avoid French borrowings (no matter how old), pupils not using the language outside of school (and sometimes not even there), pupils forgetting the language once they're out of the school system, disregard for the last natural speakers and the way they speak, etc.

The one "saving" grace is that, compared to the Breton or Irish/English situation, is that Occitan is close(r) to French. So, even if the speaker's language is under French influence, the result might still be closer to Occitan than Neo-Breton is to Breton or Neo-Irish to Irish.

But it's hard to generalize. There is no global study on the language spoken by pupils in the bilingual schools, only studies on limited samples. There's probably a lot of variation.

If you read French (or Occitan), there is a very good piece by Eric Fraj on this very topic: Quel occitan pour demain ?

[Saim]

I don’t know, as far as I can tell it seems fairly common for the older generations of Occitan activists to, while not being native speakers of course, still have been in contact with the language in childhood, thus being “rememberers” who picked up a lot of the language from native speakers (such as their grandparents). So it’s a bit closer to an unbroken chain than some of the other cases.

I’m also not sure about how avoidable “losing structures”, etc. is. Ukrainian and Catalan show similar symptoms, despite not being at all “endangered” in the sense of children no longer acquiring the language from their parents.

[iguanamon]

The only country where a dialect of Occitan, Aranés, is recognized as an official state supported language is Spain, in Catalunya, specifically the Val d'Aran. While this doesn't guarantee survival, it helps... in Spanish- Subvenciones para promover el conocimiento y el uso del occitano, aranés en Arán, en Cataluña

[nooj]

It really is extremely depressing seeing this happen in just about all minority language cases. Are there any that have avoided it? I know Basque has had some issues, though I think it's doing better at focusing on native speech, as is Welsh, though I'm still not 100% sure. I know Breton has it even worse than Irish. I wonder how things are in Occitan, or the Sámi languages? Basically, has there ever been one where a revival truly developed from the native speaking areas and worked outwards?

Despite what is often said (negatively) about Breton new speakers, the paper "The nativeness of Breton speakers and their erasure" by Mélanie Jouitteau offers many positive points. She shows that many young new speakers have the same grammatical judgements as old native speakers. The immersion system in school can still create native speakers.

The most pressing problem for Breton is not the quality of new speakers but the brutal reduction of speakers in general, and not enough new speakers to plug that gap. It's a demographic race to the bottom.

[tarvos]

I love how you're all describing "the quality of speakers" as if minority language speakers can be graded on how good their Breton or Gaelic is. Somehow this feels dehumanizing.

[nooj]

The paper I talked about says:

As long as the notion of new speaker is constructed in opposition
to speakers demonstrating linguistic nativeness, the notion of new speakers co-
organizes the erasure of the young native speakers by evacuating them from the
representations of modernity. This is scientifically inaccurate, and directly detrimental
to those speakers who live in an already minorized situation. Ultimately, it can also be
detrimental to language revitalization policies, which concentrate their efforts on
second language learners without valorizing the existing linguistic richness and
potential of their young generations of natives. The new speaker paradigm is a social
category, not a linguistic one. It centres on membership of the speech community – or
not – and the use of authentic language by legitimate speakers.

Which I broadly agree with.

[tarvos]

It just feels like we've stopped talking about human beings. I'm sure plenty of the second language learners are also people with heritage that includes that particular language. If we can all agree there's two ways to say things - the original, spoken by the original generation of natives, and the modern, who have been taught the language due to revitalization efforts - and teach the differences as such, instead of directly adding a value judgement about whose Irish is more correct (or Basque, Welsh, whatever), we'd get a whole lot further. I think these elitist attitudes hurt language acquisition rather than encourage it.

If all my friends speak the modern, Anglicized version of Irish, then that's what I have to speak to understand them. It doesn't do anybody any good to be a purist in this sense. Speaking that way is correct - in that context. You could simply call it another sociolect of Irish. This whole "this is purist" thing is good when I'm in the Gaeltacht speaking to older Irish speakers, because that's how those people speak. There are just, apparently, different ways to speak Irish. Fine, I'll learn both and switch depending on context then.

What's so hard about this?

It's not any different from what I do in Dutch, Spanish, or Basque. When I speak English, I change register depending on my social standing, the context, and the heritage/accent of the people I'm with too. Everyone will notice my English is going to sound North American even when I speak to Britons or South Africans. There is nothing wrong with that - it's our job to make an effort to understand each other and make that discrepancy work.

It'd be no different in Basque. Or Spanish.