Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

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teapot
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Re: Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

Postby teapot » Mon May 18, 2020 4:34 pm

SaltySalt wrote:
I don’t know what my problem is.


So, I have both similar experience and theories about causes to you.

I don’t have a proven solution, but I’ll explain what I’ve decided to do about it on my latest attempt to learn another language. I don’t know if it will help, but it seems to chime with some of the points made by the other more-experienced respondents.

I’ve resolved to stop flitting between different courses and methods in the search of perfection. For better or worse, I’ve picked one course and I will complete it. I have another lined up, but I’ll worry about that when I get to the end of this one. In addition, I’ve elected to try the goldlist method as a way of retaining what I’m learning in my long-term memory. I chose that because I don’t get on with flashcard-based methods and it is similar to the way in which I successfully increased my native vocabulary.

My only goal is to invest at least 30 minutes a day on my Italian learning (something realistic for me given my other commitments). I’m doing everything I can to make that easy for me to do and remove any obstacles. I’m enjoying it because the goal is modest and I’ve liberated myself from all long-term concerns of attaining any particular level of competence by a particular date. The most important thing for me is to establish an enjoyable habit. I think this will mean that I am more likely to sustain it.

I have also resolved to stop analysing the choices I’ve made for a year. This does not mean that I haven’t been sidetracked by the many things I read about on this forum such as Memrise, Glossika, Readlang, LingQ, Ear2memory … (the list is endless). The same anxiety over the efficacy of my choice of materials and methods prevails. However, I’m getting better at taking myself aside, giving myself a good talking to and getting back on the original plan.

If I stick to my modest 30 minutes a day, I will have invested more time than any of my previous failed attempts in just one year from now.

We’ll see. :D
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Flickserve
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Re: Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

Postby Flickserve » Mon May 18, 2020 5:17 pm

You should break it down into more manageable goals.

As well as sticking with a learning resource, another specific target would be to completely understand each sentence in that book and being able to translate it into English if any one of them were spoken to you at random.
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Re: Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

Postby SaltySalt » Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:11 pm

Cavesa wrote:When you said a "major european language", I was guessing the FIGS. But nope. I am clueless about Danish, but there are some learners around here and surely a list of good resources.


Could you by any chance provide a fitting roadmap for Italian? (fitting, given the learning issues/predispositions I described)
Many thanks for your help! :)
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Re: Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

Postby Cavesa » Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:28 pm

SaltySalt wrote:
Cavesa wrote:When you said a "major european language", I was guessing the FIGS. But nope. I am clueless about Danish, but there are some learners around here and surely a list of good resources.


Could you by any chance provide a fitting roadmap for Italian? (fitting, given the learning issues/predispositions I described)
Many thanks for your help! :)


Thank you for your trust! Before giving you my idea, I just want to tell you to take me with a grain of salt. Italian is my language with the biggest passive/active disparity (acitve A2/B1ish, passive C1ish), and has never been officially tested. So, I draw from my Italian and other romance experience. Should you find a better source of info (like one of our successful Italian learners in the community), profit from it.

As I said, I am convinced you need one standard coursebook series, that goes from 0 to B2 or C1. One of the popular and good looking ones is Nuovo Espresso (I have started the series and it is high on my list of what to do, as soon as I can return to Italian). It is solid, it will guide you through the levels, the typical weaknesses of this style of coursebook are rather well managed here, and it will definitely be a good guidance on getting to the next levels. Also, the publisher has done a good job with the online companion site with audio, key to exercises, etc. Assimil can be a good second course, but it is a bit less clear about the progress. If you don't like Nuovo Espresso, there are various other options on the market, the Italian publishers have been really working hard lately and improved the resources available much more, than for example the French ones (who seem to have been resting on the laurels a lot). Pick what you find pleasant and clear to use. And remember, that the series going to B2 and C1 will not only save you an uncomfortable switch to something else, but is also believing in its capacity to get the students this far :-D

For further grammar practice (Italian is not too hard, but it still requires work and getting the common obstacles out of yout way will keep you from getting stuck at the end of the beginner level), I recommend Una grammatica italiana per tutti, or any similar alternative. Alma (the publisher of Nuovo Espresso), has made a lot of grammar workbooks oriented on the various areas of the language, they are worth your attention too. Unfortunately, the awesome kwiziq doesn't offer Italian (yet). Grammar learning gets underestimated all the time: While I definitely agree that there is much more to language learning than "just" grammar, I keep seeing people, who believe they just need more speaking practice, while they are making two or three basic mistakes per sentence. :-D The conjugation or prepositions can really hold people back.

For further vocab drilling, I have a few recommendations. You can make your own deck in Anki. That is in some ways the best, but I personally find it demotivating. But there are some very good user made courses on Memrise (I don't like their official ones at all). Clozemaster is a very good tool, some of the forum members are very successful with it, it is probably the biggest premade wordlist that you get to practice by cloze deletions. The free version is sufficient for many learners, but there are advantages to paying a rather modest price. Out of the more expensive options, I definitely recommend Speakly. The 4000 words are well chosen, cloze deletions are great (and supplemented with grammar notes to the individual cards), and the minidialogues are wonderful. It is not CEFR based, but it is still very progressive and trully leads up to the end of the intermediate realm. I don't recommend Lingvist, I was rather disappointed with their French and therefore don't trust them at all (very briefly: I believe they are better at IT than at language teaching, their frequency list is weird, and their choice of what is a common use of a word is highly dubious).

One of the things that might be holding you back (it often is), is the pronunciation. I've just paid for Speechling, as I think it can get the job done fast, with feedback to individual sentences, and with a wonderful way to compare myself to the original audio. The other features don't seem to be that great, but this one really stands out. You don't need to be perfect. But having too bad pronunciation is another thing, that often keeps the learners at the "eternal beginner" level.

When you are around B1, it will be time for tons of input, and also practice (Lingora and similar tools will come handy). Until then, I am sure that podcasts (like those for learners on RAI), or graded readers can be great as a supplemental activity. But getting spread too thin over all such supplemental activities leads far too often to lack of progress. It is a matter of opinion, but I personally prefer to push a bit harder at first and get to the more interesting books earlier, rather than stay for longer at the beginner level with books for toddlers.

I hope this helps a bit. Italian is a wonderful language, I wish you lots of fun with it. Truth be told, it is the language that has given me the most value for the invested time and efforts :-)
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Re: Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

Postby victorhart » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:41 pm

I think most people on this forum are self-motivated language learners who like to study on their own.

As a hypothesis, I would suggest you might do better in a more structured language course with the motivation and guide of a professional native-speaking teacher.

You need to make it fun and engaging for yourself, understand the seriousness of the time commitment, and stick with it, as others have said. A teacher with a good method can make a huge difference if you haven't been able to put those ingredients together yourself.
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Re: Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

Postby SaltySalt » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:37 pm

Cavesa wrote:take me with a grain of salt

Given my name, it should not be an issue :lol:

Thank you so much for taking the time to write down such a detailed plan! I really appreciate it.
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Re: Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

Postby ninuno » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:43 pm

try to talk with a language exchange friend frequently
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Re: Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

Postby ninuno » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:52 am

hardly could we believe this tbh .. even a foreign waiter working at a restaurant could reach A2 by two or three years ..
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Re: Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

Postby SaltySalt » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:43 am

ninuno wrote:hardly could we believe this tbh .. even a foreign waiter working at a restaurant could reach A2 by two or three years ..


We? Is this a Peter Parker/Venom Symbiote type situation, or are you simply deciding it is your prerogative to speak on behalf of the entire forum?
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Re: Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

Postby rdearman » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:00 am

SaltySalt wrote:
ninuno wrote:hardly could we believe this tbh .. even a foreign waiter working at a restaurant could reach A2 by two or three years ..


We? Is this a Peter Parker/Venom Symbiote type situation, or are you simply deciding it is your prerogative to speak on behalf of the entire forum?

I suspect it is an issue with pronoun usage since when you look at the profile of ninuno you can see they are not a native English speaker. We all need to take into account the fact not everyone using the forum is a Native English speaker and try to assist them.
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