Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

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Cavesa
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Re: Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

Postby Cavesa » Sun May 17, 2020 5:22 pm

SaltySalt wrote:Need to clarify here. In general I never finish these. I use a mix of resources, but do never finished them, Assimil for example. In fact, using too many resources at once, I think, is my issue.

Better way to put it is that I'm petering out somewhere around A1. The problem is not that I accomplish A1 and don't know where to go next. I don't even get that far.


Yes, that's a different problem. There are various ways to face it. Some people write a language log on this forum to hold us accountable :-)


The moving abroad didn't work for obvious reasons. You stuck to the expat circles, and you seem to have focused more on being in the country without actually studying.

I did study before, but not enough to actually get anywhere with it. I didn't feel I could do much with <A1 Japanese or French. And indeed that added to the frustration and blockage (#2 and #3 in my list of vices from the top post)

No surprise. Learning to A1 before going is little different from not having learnt the language at all. It starts really making a difference around B1, I'd say.


You haven't listed a single coursebook series meant to go from 0 to B2 or C1. It's as if you were taking grade one maths classes, reviewed a bunch of grade 1 maths coursebooks and workbooks, and then were surprised to fail at a maths university entrance exam.

I wasn't clear on this. I generally had coursebooks (at least for most of the languages). I just didn't list them, as they were language specific. For Japanese, for example, we used Genki books.


But this completely changes your post and the advice you are likely to get. Most high quality courses are language specific. It is actually kind of annoying sometimes, that the huge brands are taking all the light :-D

It really looks like the main problem is abandonning your coursebooks. So, perhaps picking one and participating in a challenge like 6WC, or a personal challenge on your own log, or any other way to make you finish the coursebook could help you break the circle.
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Re: Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

Postby devilyoudont » Sun May 17, 2020 6:44 pm

So, I think you're probably being held back by a combo of wanderlust, burnout, and perfectionism based on your posts.

Wanderlust:

Choose 1 language and get to conversant in that language. If you haven't gotten to at least this, there's no way for you to maintain the language if you stop learning it, and your progress will reset.

Burnout:

Avoiding burnout has been very important in my own studies... it looks something like this: Create habits which are small enough for you to do without effort (eg 1 flash card per day). Once this habit is rock solid (approximately 30 days with you not missing the habit) add a little more. If you have enough that you're reviewing that it becomes a hassle, reduce it back down to manageable levels. Set slow and steady goals for yourself with courses, like 1 lesson a week or 1 every two weeks. Use the rest of your study time on a variety of activities or on specific activities which you really enjoy (reading, etc). If you feel like you can do tons on one day, and you want to, have at it. But don't try to keep yourself at that very high level every day, or you will simply burn out.

Perfectionism:

In one of my other hobbies, drawing, they say you have 10,000 bad drawings to get out of yourself before you start to produce good drawings. Most of us will need to go thru a similar phase in language learning where we get out all our incomprehensible sentences, and read and listen to things without understanding anything. I'm not sure if I believe Krashen's theories or not, but trying to approach things from a level of n+1 will at least demoralize you less during this time. Try to take your errors as a learning opportunity when you can, and if you can't, just allow yourself to see yourself of purging the errors from your system, a process which may take years and it's ok if there are always a few small bugs in the system.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

Postby SaltySalt » Sun May 17, 2020 11:01 pm

Thanks for all of your perspectives. They really do resonate and give me a lot to think about.

I have one more request, addressed mainly to devilyoudont and Cavesa – but if anyone else wants to answer the question below, feel free.

Given everything I wrote, would you be able to envision a loose, [conservatively] realistic 3-6 month plan?

I would like to see how you think, learn from it, but most importantly see these blueprints as a constraint (so as not to overcomplicate my own study plan).

How would you envision someone like my learning a major European language, assuming I have 30 min/day minimum (with some days being more than 30 min of course, but only if I have time and energy)

Thank you!
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Re: Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

Postby Cavesa » Sun May 17, 2020 11:27 pm

For which language and with what goals? :-D Pick one, it is impossible to give you a universal plan and there is no point in trying to invent several :-D But in general, it will be nothing too complicated, just sticking to something will be the main challenge
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Re: Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

Postby SaltySalt » Sun May 17, 2020 11:31 pm

Danish.

As for goals. The first and most important goal for the first 3-6 months is simply this:

1.) To establish a solid language learning practice, that can take me well beyond the 6 month mark.
And
2.) To gain solid knowledge of the foundations in said language

The second part is open to interpretation, I think part of my problem is NOT understanding what is a good target for 3 or 6 months in terms of language acquisition. So I'm open on this point.
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Re: Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

Postby devilyoudont » Mon May 18, 2020 12:23 am

I can't give specific advice for Danish (or probably any European language), but here is a video basically describing how to set up habits that you are going to be able to stick with

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdKUJxjn-R8

What you would do is identify things which you would like to incorporate into your study practice and then try to break them down into the smallest unit possible. That smallest unit is where you start your new habit.

My expectation would be that after six months of doing this, you will probably have at least 2 rock solid language habits that cause you to in some way engage with Danish on a daily basis. My expectation is that you would also learn some things about yourself, along the lines of "This is an activity that I want to do every day." vs "This is an activity which I'm only doing when I have free time and tons of energy." For one person, they might want to do a language exchange every day. For another, they might want to do flashcards every day. This is important information to discover about yourself as a language learner. You would then do other activities which help balance out your skills/challenge yourself on days when you have more energy/time. It's important to leave off these challenging activities if you are feeling burned out and instead pursue activities which remind you why you want to learn the language/allow you to have fun with the language. This could be watching subtitled films in Danish, listening to music you don't understand, whatever. I would also expect that your habits which you do daily, you might initially push too far with them or not far enough. If you find you have a lot of time that you want to fill with Danish, add on a new daily habit. If you find you are never doing more than the minimum every day, scale back your daily habit (cut the number of flash cards you are doing in half, allow yourself to go from 1 lesson in your textbook every week to 1 lesson every 2 weeks or every three weeks).

Efficiency doesn't matter if you burn out or quit. You will learn Danish if you stick with it consistently over a long enough period.
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Re: Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

Postby Cavesa » Mon May 18, 2020 11:29 am

When you said a "major european language", I was guessing the FIGS. But nope. I am clueless about Danish, but there are some learners around here and surely a list of good resources.

The key is to pick one or two main resources and then just supplement them without letting it all overwhelm you and get stuck. Assimil is one of the popular choices, if you manage to do it everyday, it will be a great start and it should teach you a lot.
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Re: Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

Postby kanewai » Mon May 18, 2020 3:22 pm

SaltySalt wrote: I think part of my problem is NOT understanding what is a good target for 3 or 6 months in terms of language acquisition. So I'm open on this point.
I think this is the key - you might be vastly underestimating how many hours it takes to learn a language even to a low level. I think most of us do. I still do, every single time I start to eye a new language, even though I know better.

Ponder this: these are just the classroom hours (not including homework) that the Goethe Institute estimates you will need to reach the following levels in German:

A1: 60 to 150 hours
A2: 128 to 255 hours
B1: 300 to 450 hours

That's a lot of hours. That takes commitment. My experience with friends is that they will use a course off and on for a season, and then believe that they're bad at languages - when in fact they just didn't put in a fraction of the time needed.

Getting to a solid A1 in three months would be very impressive! Personally, I always think I can do it. I never manage to, though. And I think it can be self-defeating to set a CEFR goal. The advice I was given when I first found the forum was still the best: just study every day, be patient, don't give up, and eventually you'll get to the level you want.

I've also found that there's a point where a language becomes "sticky" (as in, I can start learning it naturally, without study, and without worrying about forgetting everything when I stop studying). I don't know what that point is, but it's definitely not A1. I've put a lot of work into languages for when I travel, I've used them on the road at a basic level, I've felt great about how I'm doing... and a month after getting home it's all gone.
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Re: Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

Postby jeffers » Mon May 18, 2020 3:34 pm

SaltySalt wrote:Danish.

As for goals. The first and most important goal for the first 3-6 months is simply this:

1.) To establish a solid language learning practice, that can take me well beyond the 6 month mark.
And
2.) To gain solid knowledge of the foundations in said language

The second part is open to interpretation, I think part of my problem is NOT understanding what is a good target for 3 or 6 months in terms of language acquisition. So I'm open on this point.


1) Find one main course that you enjoy. Make it a daily goal to work on that at least 10-30 minutes of your 30 minutes per day. If you like you can supplement that with other resources such as anki or memrise for vocab, duolingo for extra practice, or something like podcasts or pimsleur. But you should consider your one main course the absolute cornerstone. I don't think it ever works out to give a deadline like "finish the textbook in 3 months" or something like that. That simply leads to frustration when you fall behind. Instead, make it a goal to work on the textbook every day for 3 months, and see how far you get. It's probably realistic to divide the textbook into halves or quarters, using them as milestones at which to evaluate your progress. Once you reach a pre-determined milestone, you might decide to change to a different course, but don't do that just because you've had a tough time with one chapter.

2) Start up a log and post your progress at whatever intervals you feel like. As simple as "Finished chapter 15 of course X" is enough, but obviously if you want to give more detail, there will be people here who will be interested to read it.
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Re: Can’t get past A1 (long-standing problem)

Postby Serpent » Mon May 18, 2020 4:12 pm

So do you currently live in Denmark?
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