Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

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einzelne
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Re: Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

Postby einzelne » Wed Aug 18, 2021 8:38 pm

german2k01 wrote:Luke,

I have one more question. After doing L-R a book the way the original author prescribes. Can anyone read the same book fluently without using any translation crutch in their native language/known language?


Depends on the book: fiction/non-fiction, its size, etc. I can tell you for sure that 3 times won't be enough to internalize even the 80% of high frequency words. Depending on the difficulty of L2 you would need way more repetitions (but then the question arises: why not simply review new vocabulary only?)

Parallel texts is a nice tool (among many others!) to start reading unadapted books with audio as a nice bonus to train your listening skills. But it's not a silver bullet. If it were that easy to 'upload' foreign languages into our brains (even for reading purposes only), all of us here would be hyper-polyglots.
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Re: Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

Postby Iversen » Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:00 pm

german2k01 wrote:Sometimes when you use a bilingual text you get this illusion that you are understanding the language and acquiring it but when you look at the same text in its original form- your comprehension rate drops significantly. Thus, you are not sure whether you are learning the language or not.


The feeling that you can understand a text when you have a translation to help you isn't different from the feeling that you can grasp the 'general' meaning when you skip all the difficult passages. But then perchance you might look at some details, and then you discover that you really didn't understand half of the sentences. And then you have of course overestimated your understanding, but that doesn't mean that you haven't learnt anything.

That's why I keep pounding on the difference between intensive and extensive activities. With intensive activities you work on limited amounts of materials, but try to understand everything that is going on - maybe with a translation or a dictionary to help you, but the aim is still to grasp all the details. On the other hand extensive activities are there to teach you how to use your knowledge AND teach you perseverance - and the ability to keep the momentum and bulldoze through something in spite of lacunes and a few misunderstandings is part of that endeavour.

Comparing your understanding with a translation and then once again without it can be depressing, but if you keep the translation within reach also the second time then hopefully you'll be less dependent on it - and that's progress. It would of course be even better if you didn't need it at all, but Rome wasn't built in one day. You should however rethink your methods if you haven't learnt anything from round one. Then there is too much extensive training and not enough intensive study.
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Re: Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

Postby RyanSmallwood » Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:50 pm

Le Baron wrote:I'm frustrated by not being able to sort through possible variables, which are impossible to isolate and account for. So imagine my week of watching a film/series with assistance from a dubbed version + dual-subtitles. Done over an intense period, whereupon I then assess what happened. Let's say for the sake of argument that I improved my comprehension to some degree. I could just say: great! It works! and be pleased with my results. What I actually wonder is whether all of it really contributed? Whether I improved because of this particular combination. And the question is fair I think because no-one wants to do more work than they need to.

What bothers me is similar to when people overcompensate to achieve the result desired then reason back that that solution was the solution, or the most efficacious solution. Like when a person feverishly puts 40 pieces of tape onto something to hold it still, when just 4 properly placed pieces will achieve exactly the same result. Sledgehammer to crack a nut etc.

It's not that I even want to dismiss L-R out of hand because every reasonably-stated possibility is worth testing. I really want to know what the reasons are for certain steps, why they were chosen. Like: listening to target audio whilst reading non-target text? What is the hypothesis behind that? Or reading/listening simultaneously at all, rather say reading first then listening or vice-versa. I can't shake the feeling of a shotgun approach. You throw 100 custard pies into a crowd and you'll get some hits. It's not-legitimate to say: look, I hit 12 people, what a success!

Maybe I'm approaching this all wrong. When I get to doing this (I've been looking around and I think I've found some suitable candidates for text/audio) I'm going to need to feel that I'm not running inadvisedly into a cul-de-sac.


Well in my experience when using TL audio and a text in NL or another language you know, it’s a bit different from watching subtitles in that you’re manually keeping them synchronized, so it forces you to pay attention to the audio to make sure you’re at the same spot in the text as what you’re hearing. So it helps me pay closer attention to audio above my level, if I just listen or used TL text I would zone out after a while if I didn’t understand enough.

When I notice a word repeating it jumps out at me and I start recognizing it before I see it in translation and understand it in other contexts without translation. Additionally if the audiobook narrator is very expressive certain lines get stuck in my head after hearing them a few times, even if I’m hearing them with a translation and I also recognize them without the translation. If the line is above my level, I may not understand all the parts, but the delivery and general sense sticks with me, and once I know enough words it become easy to figure out the unknown parts.

The way I imagine the intensive version of the method working, is that in each pass with the translation, you’re getting certain core vocab that repeats a lot, remembering lots of line readings of the narrator if you repeat it soon enough, and more familiarity with the story which helps figure out unknown words upon re-listening or re-reading without translation.

Since I do it less intensively, I repeat chapters in a short time frame rather than whole books, and this helps me learn some core vocab and early line readings, but the limitation is without a large enough sample size, there aren’t enough easy parts to learn from in order to figure out the difficult parts, so after a certain point there’s less benefit of repeating the same chapters without going through more of the book or doing other kinds of study.
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Re: Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

Postby Dragon27 » Thu Aug 19, 2021 5:09 am

RyanSmallwood wrote:Well in my experience when using TL audio and a text in NL or another language you know, it’s a bit different from watching subtitles in that you’re manually keeping them synchronized, so it forces you to pay attention to the audio to make sure you’re at the same spot in the text as what you’re hearing. So it helps me pay closer attention to audio above my level, if I just listen or used TL text I would zone out after a while if I didn’t understand enough.

I also want to add that reading the text in L1 instead of L2 (the target language) forces your brain to work a bit more intensively. You're supposed to decipher the audio in your L2 (words, phrases, sounds, whatever you're concentrating on) on your own, with enough help to still be able to do it (at least, partially), but no so much that you don't do any mental work whatsoever. Instead of getting the direct solution (text in L2) you're getting hints (text in L1, which gives you the meaning of the audio in L2), so you can try to figure out as much as you can, before, maybe, you decide to look into parallel L2 text for the missing details.
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Re: Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

Postby luke » Sat Aug 21, 2021 1:37 am

german2k01 wrote:Let me share a real example and please tell me whether I have reached "natural listening" in German.
I have been listening to German every single day for the last 16 months. 6-12 hours every day. As a part of total immersion. Listened to 70 audio dramas, a dozen of audiobooks, and watched hundreds of dubbed TV seasons. Of course, I have done L-R 8 books spanning over a couple of months, hundreds of hours. Done 50 hours of listening in 5 days etc

Does it feel like your comprehension is quite high? I'm guessing "yes" and if that's so, it sounds like you've achieved "natural listening".

german2k01 wrote:I reached 2000h mark in listening.

How many hours do you think you've listened with "decent or good comprehension"? (even if assisted with subtitles, L-R, transcripts, etc. Here I mean the "listening" part, even if using other things to help your understanding. I'm sure that's a big number and maybe it's 2000. Just trying to understand. (I sometimes focus on subtitles and tune out the sound - if I've "tuned out the sound" mentally, that's different than L-R).

german2k01 wrote:I am more interested in the speaking part of the method

In addition to other good advice here, wonder what you've done around German Phonology. Maybe it's easy with your background. To me, German has a lot of "foreign" sounds. Part of L-R is to build up the speaking side of the equation from the smallest part on up. The smallest parts are individual sounds. Phonemes. Things like that.

From sounds, she moves the student to words, then phrases, then sentences, then structured phrases, shadowing, reading aloud, answering questions like, "tell me about that story you've been reading", and finally to more free-style conversation.

To me, one of the standout aspects of L-R is that Listening, the first skill starts globally, with long novels that you work to understand.

Speaking, works the opposite direction. It starts with the smallest components, (sounds, words) and gradually gets bigger and bigger (phrases, sentences, conversations).

Have you done shadowing? Do you think you can do it fairly well with books you've used for L-R? (even if you slow the audio a bit)

Can you read a book you've done L-R in a way that a listener who didn't have the book could follow the story? (not as fast as a German, but at a pace they could listen for a couple minutes and then tell you what the bit you read was about?)

I'm not suggesting you need to change something, just trying to understanding what parts of the Listen-Reading system you're using, since that's the thread topic here. :)
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Re: Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

Postby german2k01 » Sat Aug 21, 2021 11:17 am

Does it feel like your comprehension is quite high? I'm guessing "yes" and if that's so, it sounds like you've achieved "natural listening".


I can only share what I am currently witnessing in terms of listening skills. The litmus test she says is to listen "Die Schneekonigin" audiobook unassisted. I listened to it. I only understood 60% of it. I have developed enough listening skills to pick up phrases and sentences in a movie/Tv show without resorting to using subtitles. Plus, I can clearly make out the spelling of words just from hearing sounds to look them up on the fly. But I am not sure if that amounts to "natural listening"? However, this is what I am currently capable of doing in German.


How many hours do you think you've listened with "decent or good comprehension"? (even if assisted with subtitles, L-R, transcripts, etc. Here I mean the "listening" part, even if using other things to help your understanding. I'm sure that's a big number and maybe it's 2000. Just trying to understand. (I sometimes focus on subtitles and tune out the sound - if I've "tuned out the sound" mentally, that's different than L-R).


With L-R 90% comprehension rate. I gave the whole novel my full attention. A few words I did not comprehend the first time around while listening to German audio and following along with text in English but were understood by the third try. Still, I did not pick out a few words because of this I did not understand a few sentences. Hence, my overall comprehension was hovering around 90% by the third try. 90% comprehension is more than enough to get the summary/gist of the book. I felt like by the end of the method I understood the main plot of each book I did L-R. I can easily write the summary of the book in my own words and explain it to a stranger.
If we just consider the listening part with good comprehension then I would say the actual number would amount to 1000 hours instead of 2000h.

I have not done shadowing. I can easily shadow one of these books that I have done L-R because now I can understand the plot of the book. I was so busy doing L-R these books that I did not find any extra time for it. It was like a full-time job every day.
Can you read a book you've done L-R in a way that a listener who didn't have the book could follow the story? (not as fast as a German, but at a pace they could listen for a couple minutes and then tell you what the bit you read was about?)


I had a physical copy of the book Game of Thrones(DiE HERREN VON WINTERFELL) in German. This book is aimed at the C2 level in English. After doing L-R this book, I read through it in 4 days in German. 550 pages long. I could understand some sentences but could not understand others. However, I just read a random paragraph of the book in German and I can easily translate it into English with 100% accuracy. The few sentences I could not understand not just because of grammar structures but each sentence carried an unknown word that I had not acquired naturally. Once I look it up in a dictionary that sentence becomes comprehensible right away.
After doing L-R this book I noticed that the maximum unknown words I underlined 4 words on a page and a minimum of 2 words.
Not 4 words on every page. It varied from 2-4 words on each page.
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Re: Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

Postby luke » Sat Aug 21, 2021 12:54 pm

german2k01 wrote:I understood the main plot of each book I did L-R. I can easily write the summary of the book in my own words and explain it to a stranger.

Maybe practice "speaking the summary". That's another L-R thing. Then "speak the summary" to your tutor. Maybe you'll get some helpful feedback.

german2k01 wrote:I have not done shadowing.

Both "shadowing" and "reading aloud" do exercise the physical part of talking. Maybe they would also help.
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Re: Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

Postby german2k01 » Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:46 am

Luke,

I know the original author is not a user of Anki. However, I feel like using L-R+Anki will provide me better results in terms of acquiring vocabulary and retaining them in the long-term memory. As the previous poster mentioned that "three times" is not enough to "internalize" the most frequent words let alone less common yet important words.
I read the book "Game of Thrones" after doing L-R to it. And, I echo the above sentiments. It would be advantageous to do "sentence mining" from the book after initially doing L-R to it. That's my impression of it.
What do you think about it if you have any ideas?
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Re: Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

Postby luke » Sun Aug 22, 2021 11:50 am

german2k01 wrote:I feel like using L-R+Anki will provide me better results in terms of acquiring vocabulary and retaining them in the long-term memory. What do you think about it if you have any ideas?

Most important is to do what you think might work better.

I use Anki, but only a tiny bit with L-R. Most of my Anki is decks I've downloaded from Ankiweb and are related to word frequency. Not sure that's the best approach, but I think it's better than no "explicit vocab learning". (I could be wrong, even for my own situation ;))

What I've done with L-R I think is better overall and long term than Anki. By "long term" I mean a decade or more. I've had multiple experiences where I got Spanish or French up to a decent level and then did nothing with them for a decade or two. What will work best if you (I) lose interest for 10 or 20 years? L-R is about developing a deep relationship with a book I'm passionate about. I didn't always know that. I thought it was just a technique for learning languages in a fast or funner way.

This time through, I'm using L-R to develop a deep relationship with a couple books. (L-R originator suggests you already have that relationship before you start and I'm sure that's better advice). I'm using it with more than 2 books, but I have 2 that fit the "I can read that again and again and enjoy it" criteria.

With vocab and L-R, I've been doing variations and repetitions. Variations have included, different narrator, making notes in my paper books (L-R originator suggests parallel and interlinear (often electronic)), throwing in a few written one word definitions into the margin, making scraps of paper flash cards, switching L1 and L2 sides of the L-R equation, but I've resisted using much Anki on these "books I want to have a relationship with". They're books that native speakers would say are difficult. For a beginner or intermediate, who hasn't even read the books in L1, they're even more so.

So I've found some parallel electronic versions of these texts and I've been using them these last few days. It's another variation and closer to what the L-R originator would say to do from the start.

BTW, the "unknown words" in these books started from "most of them" and has been coming down gradually.

On the long term memory side, I know if I quit studying for 10 years and then picked up the language again, my "back up to speed" would be faster and better, the deeper my relationship with the book was. Specifically, use the book you made your notes in and listen to the narrator you liked the best.

But back to your original question. Just do what you enjoy and think will help. You can always change your mind and techniques.
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Re: Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

Postby german2k01 » Sun Aug 22, 2021 12:39 pm

Agreed. Choose whatever works best for you in your particular situation. It is definitely not my way or the highway. Overall, I prefer L-R over simply reading a book. I get more mileage out of the book in terms of understanding, surely, I will not be doing it with every book. But If I want to develop a personal relationship with a particular book it is definitely my go-to method. Even If I want to review a few sentences from the book in Anki there is no harm in it. Just do it as long as you are enjoying the process.
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