Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

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RyanSmallwood
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Re: Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

Postby RyanSmallwood » Mon Aug 23, 2021 12:07 pm

One of the more intensive L-R variations I did was to go through a book in an SRS type pattern. So just as an example of how you might do this, say you were L-R a book and you had 1 hour a day for intensive L-R and chapters were 15 minutes long, so 4 chapters a day. Here's the kind of pattern of how I'd go through the chapters each day

Day 1: 1, 1, 2, 1
Day 2: 1, 2, 1, 2
Day 3: 1, 2, 3, 4
Day 4: 1, 2, 3, 4
Day 5: 5, 6, 7, 8
Day 6: 1, 2, 3, 4
Day 7: 5, 6, 7, 8
Day 8: 9, 10, 11, 12
Day 9: 13, 14, 15, 16
Day 10: 1, 2, 3, 4
(and so on until you feel like finishing the book...)

So the idea here is to much more intensively study the earlier chapters, but also to try to follow the L-R mentality of don't get hung up trying to understand 100% of a chapter if its above your level. You get the early chapters to the point where you know them very well, but then you expand the section you're L-Ring to see the vocabulary in new contexts so you have a better chance of noticing new things in the early chapters. Also because you expand the amount to chapters you go through each time, you get an SRS effect with the early chapters in that you're increasing the time between when you review them.

There's no exact rules for the pattern, its just an idea of how to think about it. More important I would say is I found when I repeated a chapter sometimes I would notice more and solidify things better from the first pass, but after a while there was diminishing returns of noticing new things, so it was better to move on and come back later. And I was mostly doing all these passes with L1 text and L2 audio, but you could add in other steps as well. Also for the later chapters I was studying less intensively, if a word jumped out at me, or I notice it was important but I hadn't acquired it yet, it was helpful to rewind the audio however many seconds and repeat the useful passages a few times.

I found this helped with picking up vocabulary and also getting used to the narrator's voice. Also once I got used to hearing stuff like the character names, those provided an anchor point in hearing the audio that made it easier to notice other words, before when I just did an extensive pass sometimes I would not notice as much until I got used to the character names and other key vocabulary. I also usually skipped the first step of having read the book already, and since I wasn't always motivated to re-read books, I found not knowing the ending and learning a bit more of the story helped me focus better on repeat passes then if I had just finished the whole book, so it can be a way to get more out of books you won't return to as often.

I also think is is a good way to "understand how Listening-Reading works" for anyone trying for the first time who doesn't want to commit 100% yet, in that the early chapters become a benchmark of how far you can get repeating a small section and how it becomes more comprehensible with more exposure to vocabulary in other contexts and after letting some time pass. Anyways just an idea of some possible variations you can try.
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Re: Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

Postby german2k01 » Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:10 pm

I will try this variation to see what kinds of effects I may have on the retention of words. However, I need to choose a book that I really like and do not mind L-R it again in small doses.
As a side question, if you are dealing with a series, for example, either Game of Thrones or Harry Potter, is it better to do this sort of variation with each book, or is it better to move on with the next book in the series? The same words will be repeated again in different contexts and more of a chance of getting reinforced?
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Re: Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

Postby RyanSmallwood » Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:36 pm

I mean there’s no hard rules, but using this variation since you’re alternating between reviewing and going through new chapters you can kind of judge yourself how much benefit you’re getting from review vs new material and new contexts. It depends on a lot of factors like your already known vocab, level of listening and ability to notice new words, how often the author repeats words, and how it affects your motivation and focus, so you just do it for as long as it seems beneficial.

For books in a series, it really would depend on how much new vocab the author introduces, obviously there will be a lot of carry over from past books, but often there’s new characters and core vocab introduced. I’d think it would be less essential if you’re already used to the narrator and some core vocab, but if you’re noticing a lot of repeating terms that aren’t clicking into place, it can be useful to do some repetition until they’re nailed down.
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Re: Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

Postby german2k01 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 9:53 pm

I was going through the old postings of the original author. When she says "sentences are flowing" after doing L_R for 400 hours. I mean more like a couple of sentences or proper fluency like she could easily talk about basic topics. Some of her statements were not clear about this. Also, when she listened to a German audiobook of "the snow queen" as a litmus test. How much did she understand it? 50% 60% or 100%?All she wrote she "understood" it. Sometimes we really overestimate our comprehension level.
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Re: Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

Postby einzelne » Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:39 pm

german2k01 wrote:I was going through the old postings of the original author. When she says "sentences are flowing" after doing L_R for 400 hours.

german2k01 wrote:Sometimes we really overestimate our comprehension level.


When it comes to language learning, comparing yourself to others is a bad strategy and a real motivation killer. First, each of us is different (and have different circumstances). Second, people generally tend to exaggerate their achievements. Third, the Internet is full of quacks. I mean, Kafka's Castle in 3 days and "I understood every single word". Seriously? Give me a ... break!

I think even if you study 12 hours a day nonstop, it still takes some time before the language finally settles in in your brain. If you haven't read “Lessons learned from fifty years of theory and practice in government language teaching”, I strongly encourage you to do so ASAP. There you find the following: "The time necessary for a beginning learner to develop professional proficiency in each language—proven again and again over a half century of language teaching—cannot be shortened appreciably. FSI has tried to shorten programs, and it has not worked".

So, be patient. I know it particularly hard when it's your first language but patience is your only friend.
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Re: Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

Postby lusan » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:38 pm

Dragon27 wrote:
lusan wrote:In my youth, ALL movies were English/subs. Movies centers were full of people every evening -outdoor in the Caribbean heat. Nobody learned English by watching those movies.

1) Movies and shows have a completely different content density compared to audiobooks; 2) watching movies in a cinema don't give you the opportunity to pause and re-listen to the same sentence multiple times until you can hear all the sounds and words and understand its meaning; 3) you don't read subtitles in advance, they usually appear at the same time as the phrase they correspond to (during L-R you're supposed to read the text somewhat ahead of the sound); 4) L-R requires conscious effort (depending on your command of the language) and high levels of concentration. Watching movies is a relaxed activity and on top of that your attention is divided between picture and (in our case) subtitles, so that you usually end up ignoring the speech almost entirely. Due to the latter I too consider it more effective to watch stuff without subtitles at all, they hog too much attention and prevent your brain from working the sound out to develop listening comprehension.
But L-R works. It's a completely different activity at its core so it brings different results. You can watch anime with subtitles all your life and have nothing to show for it (except for a few cliché japanese phrases/exclamations), but if you put in some effort and dilligently work with audiobooks you can make substantial progress, which will allow you to then switch to pure native material and continue developing you skills as much as you like.
No, of course there's no shortcuts. Real language mastery comes only with years of immersion and practice.


100 % agree.
That's why I watched films without subs.
It served me very well for both French and Italian.
Not for Polish, my first odd language, I did not try.
For Polish I worked with audiobooks
but it was no fun. Just work, work, work.
I prefer to enjoy a film while also benefiting with a listening practice.
-Of course, at the beginning film watching demands a lot of attention,
and it is not really worthy without the assistance of active vocabulary study,
Anki, Goldlist or whatever.
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Re: Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

Postby Le Baron » Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:20 pm

I already embarked upon my test of L-R using Paul Coelho's The Alchemist, but in Spanish (El alquimista). As I said I would after vacation time. Plus the fact that I am actually 'off sick' due to an unusual occurrence of back pain and a chest infection!

Anyway, I have followed the basic methodology. I've already read this book before in French, but I decided to refresh my memory and also work from English as the L1 and re-read it; quite rapidly compared to my usual standards of slowness. Then I did the pattern according what I jotted down from the L-R author notes (can never recall at will the seemingly random patterns laid out).

I finished two rounds of this. And whilst it is perhaps too soon to make a comprehensive judgement, I'm not at all convinced of the efficacy of this right now. It feels a lot like filling an egg cup from a giant concrete mixer to 'ensure' the egg cup is full. In short: massive overkill.

On the one hand it feels more like just a very long and sustained version of listening input with transcripts, except that one of them isn't a transcript. Which may be beneficial, but the concept of mixing in the already-known L1 version of the text seems random and meaningless to me right now. Listening to a target language whilst seeing the words in a totally differing language with all the different structure seems to me a pointless exercise. No different at all than watching Spanish with English subtitles which everyone who doesn't understand Spanish does and it doesn't make them any better at Spanish.

Why am I not listening in English and reading in Spanish? Perhaps there's a good answer to reject that question. Overall it looks a lot like a very unscientific sort of thing. I tend to think - in accordance with ordinary methods of enquiry and theory-building - that to be able to prescribe methods and steps for something, it's necessary to know reasons and causal factors and known or theorised mechanisms of operation. This seems more like a faith-based approach pretending to be a scientific methodology, yet also claiming not to be scientific but something that 'just works!'
Well we'll see. Perhaps there will be a 'breakthrough' moment, though I can't help thinking that anything someone hammers at this intensity will stick a bit. But that the ratio between effort and outcome may well be out of kilter. I hope to return and contradict myself on this.
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Re: Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

Postby DaveAgain » Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:38 pm

Le Baron wrote:Why am I not listening in English and reading in Spanish? Perhaps there's a good answer to reject that question. Overall it looks a lot like a very unscientific sort of thing. I tend to think - in accordance with ordinary methods of enquiry and theory-building - that to be able to prescribe methods and steps for something, it's necessary to know reasons and causal factors and known or theorised mechanisms of operation. This seems more like a faith-based approach pretending to be a scientific methodology, yet also claiming not to be scientific but something that 'just works!'
Mr Arguelles talked about this a little in his Reading Literature in Foreign Languages presentation. (41m55s into video)
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Re: Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

Postby RyanSmallwood » Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:52 pm

Le Baron wrote:I already embarked upon my test of L-R using Paul Coelho's The Alchemist, but in Spanish (El alquimista).


Appreciate you giving it a try, rather than just jumping to a snap judgement about it. Although I think already knowing another romance language and being familiar with the story might contribute to the L1 text L2 audio pass feeling less useful, although you should still be able to get some idea of how the method works from it I think.

Just to learn more about your experience how was your comprehension going through with L2 text and L2 audio, were you able to follow what was going on in this story, and how often did you encounter any words you couldn't figure out from context? When you did L1 text and L2 audio did you feel like your comprehension was better or about the same? Did you feel like you were paying attention to the audio to keep it sync with the text? Were there any frequently repeated words that jumped to your attention? Not sure if you've done an L2 text and L2 audio pass after L1 text, but if/when you do, did you notice any words or line readings that you remembered hearing in the L1 pass?

I'd also say that while I understand how the author came to suggest the specific steps in the order that they did, I don't think they necessarily are the best way to understand how the method works, and that may also be in part why it feels like "taking it on faith". I tried the method on and off for a while before I figured out for myself how of measure the benefits. For a closely related language, what I would suggest to see if its helping or not, is to try listening to just the audio without any text and see how well you can keep focused before your mind starts wandering, then listen again after doing any of the passes with the text, and see if the audio feels more familiar and is easier to pay attention to, and do you remember any specific expressive line readings from the pass with the text.

Anyways, looking forward to hearing what you future experiences with it are (positive or negative) and feel free to throw any questions at me if you want to.
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Re: Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

Postby Le Baron » Mon Sep 20, 2021 6:16 pm

RyanSmallwood wrote:Just to learn more about your experience how was your comprehension going through with L2 text and L2 audio, were you able to follow what was going on in this story, and how often did you encounter any words you couldn't figure out from context? When you did L1 text and L2 audio did you feel like your comprehension was better or about the same? Did you feel like you were paying attention to the audio to keep it sync with the text? Were there any frequently repeated words that jumped to your attention? Not sure if you've done an L2 text and L2 audio pass after L1 text, but if/when you do, did you notice any words or line readings that you remembered hearing in the L1 pass?

In all honesty it just felt like two difficult servings of the same thing. The text AND the audio of something I don't fully understand (the possible solution to which you have addressed in the paragraph below). I fully accept the concept of listening while reading transcripts, then listening alone and reading alone and then recombining the two. I'm less convinced by the idea of enormous lengths and specifically using fiction. Though again I can see why this is posited: to pull you into a story with a single author's writing style which will envelop you over the long-term with repetition.

I got lost in large parts of the story, not on the entire plot because I know the story, but in the sense of asking: what's being described exactly? Or knowing what's vaguely going on, but left with a huge surplus of words and constructions whose place and function I can't fathom at all. There are cognate words for both English/French I can easily work out and grammar I can transplant from French (though Spanish subjunctives are more widely employed). The following L2 text/audio just felt like an utter chore, maybe it has to be. Stuff registered, but you know stuff registers when I just read books and just listen to audio separately too. I didn't make any specific links between L1 text and L2. Other than the obvious fact that they are the same 'thing' in essence. Though translations tend to be works of art in their own right with their own 'feel'. I don't feel that they map onto one another in that way.

RyanSmallwood wrote:I'd also say that while I understand how the author came to suggest the specific steps in the order that they did, I don't think they necessarily are the best way to understand how the method works, and that may also be in part why it feels like "taking it on faith". I tried the method on and off for a while before I figured out for myself how of measure the benefits. For a closely related language, what I would suggest to see if its helping or not, is to try listening to just the audio without any text and see how well you can keep focused before your mind starts wandering, then listen again after doing any of the passes with the text, and see if the audio feels more familiar and is easier to pay attention to, and do you remember any specific expressive line readings from the pass with the text.

Now I can accept that things don't always fall into place immediately. I've learned enough things over time to know that sometimes the penny must drop. Also that scepticism can sometimes get in the way. It's worth applying some of the elastic approaches you outline above to see what does and doesn't work. I'm still going to pursue this because I actually hope for it to offer something.
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