Did the Listening-Reading method work for you?

[jeffers]

L-R is a very specific method, and like most people I thought it was something else when I first heard about it. Like so many others I thought it was simply reading and listening at the same time. So for example, IronMike wrote:

I like doing L-R L2 to L2, haven't done it any other way yet.

But L2 to L2 is not the L-R method. L-R is much more specific. I read the original, rambling description many years ago, so my memory of the exact details will be hazy. However, there are two distinctive features of L-R as a "method":
1. Primarily L-R is listening to your target language while reading the same text in your own language. I believe the inventor also allows for it the other way round, but the original method was that way.
2. It must be done for hours on end. Preferably many hours. If you've listened and read in half-hour chunks than you haven't done L-R as originally described.

[IronMike]

L-R is a very specific method, and like most people I thought it was something else when I first heard about it. Like so many others I thought it was simply reading and listening at the same time. So for example, IronMike wrote:

I like doing L-R L2 to L2, haven't done it any other way yet.

But L2 to L2 is not the L-R method. L-R is much more specific. I read the original, rambling description many years ago, so my memory of the exact details will be hazy. However, there are two distinctive features of L-R as a "method":
1. Primarily L-R is listening to your target language while reading the same text in your own language. I believe the inventor also allows for it the other way round, but the original method was that way.
2. It must be done for hours on end. Preferably many hours. If you've listened and read in half-hour chunks than you haven't done L-R as originally described.

Then you can ignore my "findings."

[jeff_lindqvist]

But L2 to L2 is not the L-R method.

It's one of the steps, though. I use it after I'm familiar enough with the story, but somewhere in the original mega-thread it was a step before L1-L2 (say, listening to Klingon and reading Klingon before having an idea of the story).

Similar topics:
Mandarin L-R: Four questions (←HTLAL)
Questions about L/R
Listening-Reading experiments log
Extensive LRing - variations on the tried and true?

[Serpent]

For example, I don't speak Portuguese, but I think that even learners, who haven't studied a Romance language, might often be able to figure out that the following sentence from the first Harry Potter book is about the manager of a company named Grunnings that manufactures something called "brocas" in Portuguese.

Mr. Dursley era director de uma empresa chamada Grunnings que fabricava brocas.

However, if a learner looked at the same sentence in the Finnish translation:

Herra Dursley oli johtaja yhtiössä, jonka nimi oli Grunnings ja joka valmisti poria.

I somewhat doubt that s/he would be able to make many meaningful inferences, due to the lack of cognates.

(BTW, the original sentence was: Mr Dursley was the director of a firm called Grunnings, which made drills.)

I've compared these very examples here
I definitely wouldn't describe LR as a "fad".
As others have pointed out, once you're capable of recognizing word boundaries you're supposed to read in L1 (or strong L2) and listen in the language you're learning. A parallel or interlinear text is also great for beginners.

Be sure to check out Volte's LR logs on the old forum if you haven't yet. At one point, a challenge was organized where several experienced members would learn Finnish (because everyone already spoke 2-3 FIGS languages) for 6 weeks. Volte did LR in Finnish. Everyone passed A2 (conversation only, I think?).

I definitely find LR useful and I miss it (nowadays I read fast enough in Spanish and Italian that an audiobook would slow me down, and besides most books I'm reading aren't available as audiobooks). I especially liked doing L2/L3, even with combinations where I knew some words in L2 and others in L3 (for example in a Romance language and Polish).

[Dragon27]

But L2 to L2 is not the L-R method.

It's one of the steps, though. I use it after I'm familiar enough with the story, but somewhere in the original mega-thread it was a step before L1-L2 (say, listening to Klingon and reading Klingon before having an idea of the story).

And even before that step there's a step 1: read the book in translation. So by the time you reach any steps with 'listening' part you should already know the story.
But both step 1 and step 2 (i.e. reading in translation and L2/L2 listening/reading) could be skipped if you (due to your experience with the method and easiness of the language) could tackle step 3 (L2/L1 listening/reading - the main step) from the start. Wouldn't recommend for beginners.

[ryanheise]

I'm using it with Japanese and one of the things I've found very helpful to make it more effective is writing down the entire sentence, passage, or phrase in a hyper-literal, word for word English translation to wrap my head around the different syntax. Vladimir Skultety calls this "cave man" speak and really makes the listening-reading method more approachable with a language that has such a different structure.

Even setting aside the L-R method, reversed word order is definitely a big obstacle just on its own and it probably manifests itself in a lot of different learning methods. Like you, I'm a fan of direct translations that try to preserve word order.

I remember hearing about a Korean textbook that basically started off written in English, but then quickly moved on to a variation of English that used Korean word order, but with English words. The idea was to get you used to the SOV word order while mentally still in your native language. After this transition, it then gradually replaced the English words by their Korean counterparts.

For example, instead of saying "Now, let's learn about Korean grammar."
It might instead say "Now, Korean Grammar about learn let's."
Then later on, it might say "Now, 한국어 Grammar about learn let's." (or perhaps some romanisation of it)

I have never seen this book in person, only heard of its concept, but this is the book I wish I had started with.

[smallwhite]

Have you seen Yuurei's experiment, complete with before- and after- Dialang tests?

Yuurei's Language Log (ZH, KO, FR, JA, ES)
Introduction
First Impressions
Second Impressions
Results & Final Impressions

[Brad]

In the early stages, I prefer the "ristening" method:

http://bsk1.com/Ear2Memory.pdf

Page 27: the difference between "risening" and "L-R."

Pages 156-160: the author's experiments with languages that belong to totally different language families.

Thanks for that link, Hashimi! That's a very motivating read.

Page 27 and I'm reading about a listening comprehension method. 2 pages later and I'm looking at a cartoon of an erect penis

[lusan]

I don't like to listen and read at the same time. Are you able to focus on two things at the same time? I think it is more beneficial to separate the activities.

• Only listening, afterwards reading the transcript - very good for improving listening comprehension.
• Listening and reading L2 - in this case I rely on the reading. Hearing the words pronounced at the same time will probably help getting used to the sound but in fact I might as well just read.
• Listening and reading L1 - this makes no sense. In that case you are only reading your native language, and will block out the language you are trying to learn.

The point of LR is you actually supposed to focus on listening and only using the reading for quick reference when you get lost.

In my youth, ALL movies were English/subs. Movies centers were full of people every evening -outdoor in the Caribbean heat. Nobody learned English by watching those movies. I found that separating listening from reading is very effective. My French comprehension skyrocket when I drop ALL subtitles. I'd wish I could have found interesting Dubbed Serials in Polish.... But Nope... they use the boring lektorem strategy: A flat and monotonic voice that destroys the listening experience.

I believe the best is to learn the basic and then jump happily into the language. I do not believe anymore in short cuts.

[Dragon27]

In my youth, ALL movies were English/subs. Movies centers were full of people every evening -outdoor in the Caribbean heat. Nobody learned English by watching those movies.

1) Movies and shows have a completely different content density compared to audiobooks; 2) watching movies in a cinema don't give you the opportunity to pause and re-listen to the same sentence multiple times until you can hear all the sounds and words and understand its meaning; 3) you don't read subtitles in advance, they usually appear at the same time as the phrase they correspond to (during L-R you're supposed to read the text somewhat ahead of the sound); 4) L-R requires conscious effort (depending on your command of the language) and high levels of concentration. Watching movies is a relaxed activity and on top of that your attention is divided between picture and (in our case) subtitles, so that you usually end up ignoring the speech almost entirely. Due to the latter I too consider it more effective to watch stuff without subtitles at all, they hog too much attention and prevent your brain from working the sound out to develop listening comprehension.
But L-R works. It's a completely different activity at its core so it brings different results. You can watch anime with subtitles all your life and have nothing to show for it (except for a few cliché japanese phrases/exclamations), but if you put in some effort and dilligently work with audiobooks you can make substantial progress, which will allow you to then switch to pure native material and continue developing you skills as much as you like.
No, of course there's no shortcuts. Real language mastery comes only with years of immersion and practice.