Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby reineke » Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:01 am

Le Baron wrote:
reineke wrote:“A Europe of polyglots is not a Europe of people who speak many languages fluently, but, in the best case scenario, of people who can communicate, each speaking his own language and understanding that of the other. People who, while not being able to speak it fluently, by understanding it, even with difficulty, would understand the “spirit”, the cultural universe that every one expresses when speaking the language of his ancestors and of his own tradition.”

Umberto Eco

Also re: “I understand everything, but I can’t speak”

Probably true, though it clashes with the EU's stated aims of multilingualism. It also clashes with their rather romanced version of reality.

I'm ambivalent about mutual intelligibility. I know it obviously exists in differing capacities between related languages, though that depends on the person. I know a Spaniard who talks to the man who sells 'Broodje Carlo' in Utrecht and he's Italian. I can tell the Italian in this case can understand Spanish better than vice-versa. Before Christmas I renewed contact with an old friend, who was the first 'friend' (as in not colleague or contact) I met when I came to NL. She's Italian and said she could understand Spanish and French, but could neither understand me nor reply to me in French. In many cases it's a weird sort of pride thing the Romance language natives have, where they widely claim to be sons and daughters of Latin all together. Then in secret the Spaniards say: 'But French is unpronounceable, and I'm hopeless at it!'


To be fair, Eco meant that Europeans should make an effort to actually learn something. He didn't expect people to become functional polyglots or to just understand stuff because the languages are related. Portuguese speakers understand Spanish better than the other way around and (some) Latin Americans sound better in Italian than Spaniards. People vary in their ability to take advantage of cognates. Yeah, I read a study about that and I spied what native speakers say about each other's languages. Generally speaking they may get overconfident after a little exposure. Teaching Latin Americans Italian was fun and demanding. They were getting it real fast.
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby lowsocks » Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:17 am

luke wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche wrote:At Schulpforta, Nietzsche received an important grounding in languages—Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and French—so as to be able to read important primary sources;

Maybe we need a new skill level at LLorg of "important grounding" :mrgreen:

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Going off-topic, on a bit of a rant... This isn't meant to single out Luke, but one thing I find frustrating is the practice of attributing a quote to someone (usually famous), without any clear indication of a source that would allow one to verify it. Where in Aristotle's works does he say this? At the very least, give the book title (e.g. Physics, Metaphysics, Nichomachean Ethics, Rhetoric...). Of course, giving the chapter would be even better.

Most of the quote collections on the web are completely lacking in this basic information. They give long lists of quotes by, say, Abraham Lincoln, Mark Twain, or Albert Einstein, with absolutely nothing that would help you to verify them.

Some of you could not care less, I suppose. But I make my plea anyway: Please, people, do not follow their lead of poor (or non-existent) scholarship. Include a proper citation.

...end of rant.
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby Herodotean » Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:36 am

It turns out that the quotation is actually given to Aristotle by an ancient source, the biographer Diogenes Laertius: Τῆς παιδείας ἔφη τὰς μὲν ῥίζας εἶναι πικράς, τὸν δὲ καρπὸν γλυκύν. That's a much better pedigree than I had expected! But even Diogenes, with laudable caution, says only that this and other sayings are "attributed to" him. Diogenes lived about six hundred years after Aristotle.
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby lowsocks » Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:51 am

Thanks very much! I had tried searching through online versions of Aristotle's works (in English translation, I admit). But nothing came up. I was beginning to think it was a misattribution. Your erudition is much appreciated :)
Last edited by lowsocks on Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby einzelne » Thu Jan 06, 2022 4:56 am

lowsocks wrote:Where in Aristotle's works does he say this?


He doesn't say this.

I suggest to counter this fake Aristotle with real Nietzsche!

Half-knowledge. - He who speaks little of a foreign language gets more pleasure from it than he who speaks it well. Enjoyment is with the half­-knowers.


I'm generous enough to provide you with the exact source: Human, All Too Human, aphorism 554, translated by R.J. Hollingdale, p. 185 of the Cambridge Texts in the History of Philosohy edition)

So, next time you see smiley YouTube polyglots, remember this quote from Nietzsche, comrades!
Have you ever seen Argüelles smiling? There you have it! Mastering a language is an effing drudgery, brutal and masochistic, and this fellow learnt it the hard way!
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby reineke » Mon Jan 24, 2022 7:19 pm

C********n Preparatory School
Suggested Final Examination Questions
05/11/94

As you prepare your final examination questions, please use the following questions as guidelines. You will recall that these questions have appeared on previous years’ exams.

1. HISTORY
Describe the history of the papacy from its origins to the present, concentrating especially but not exclusively on its social, political, economic, religious, and philosophical impact on Europe, Asia, America, and Africa. Be brief, concise, and specific.

2. HEALTH
You have been provided with a razor blade, a piece of gauze, and a bottle of scotch. Remove your appendix. Do not suture until your work has been inspected. You have fifteen minutes.

3. PUBLIC SPEAKING
2500 riot-crazed aborigines are storming the classroom. Calm them. You may use any ancient language except Latin or Greek.

4. BIOLOGY
Create Life. Estimate the differences in subsequent human culture if this form of life had developed 500 million years earlier, with special attention to its probable effects on the English parliamentary system. Prove your thesis.

5. MUSIC
Write a piano concerto. Orchestrate and perform it with flute and drum. You will find a piano under your seat.

6. PSYCHOLOGY
Based on your knowledge of their works, evaluate the emotional stability, degree of adjustment, and repressed frustrations of each of the following: Alexander of Aphrodisias, Rameses II, Gregory of Nicæa,1 and Hammurabi. Support your thesis with quotations from each man’s work, making appropriate references. It is not necessary to translate.

7. ENGINEERING
The disassembled parts of a high-powered rifle have been placed on your desk. You will also find an instruction manual, printed in Swahili. In three minutes, a hungry Bengal tiger will be admitted to the room. Take whatever action you feel is appropriate. Be prepared to justify your decision.

8. WORLD HISTORY
There is a red telephone on the desk beside you. Start World War III. Report at length on its sociopolitical effects, if any.

9. PHYSICS
Explain the nature of matter.

10. PHILOSOPHY
Sketch the development of human thought. Estimate its significance. Compare with the development of any other kind of thought.

11. GENERAL KNOWLEDGE
Describe in detail. Be objective and specific.

https://www.madbeppo.com/test-your-omniscience/
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby Iversen » Mon Jan 24, 2022 9:29 pm

How long time have we got? And is it OK to take 'health' last?
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby Le Baron » Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:43 pm

Looks like the 'general studies' paper I did for A levels. There was no piano under my seat though. Had there been I'd have snaffled it into my bag and taken it with me.
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby lowsocks » Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:11 pm

reineke wrote:2. HEALTH
You have been provided with a razor blade, a piece of gauze, and a bottle of scotch. Remove your appendix. Do not suture until your work has been inspected. You have fifteen minutes.
Heading off-topic, but something like this has actually happened. In 1961, Dr. Leonid Rogozov was a 27-year-old surgeon attached to the Soviet Antarctic expedition. Unfortunately, he started to feel unwell, and correctly self-diagnosed himself with appendicitis. But also unfortunately, air flights were not possible because of snow and blizzards, and the ship that had brought them there would not return for another year. So he was stranded. And finally, there was no other doctor around who could perform the operation -- he was the only doctor with the expedition. But the appendix had to be removed before it burst.

And so he operated on himself. Fortunately, the operation was a success.

There are many pages on the web about it. Here are a few:
- The man who cut out his own appendix (BBC):
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32481442
- Leonid Rogozov (wikipedia):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonid_Rogozov
- How a Soviet doctor cut out his own appendix in the Antarctic:
https://www.rbth.com/history/327925-how ... t-appendix
- Dr. Leonid Rogozov: The Soviet surgeon who removed his own appendix while stranded in Antarctica, 1961:
https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/leonid ... ndix-1961/

Note: Some of the photos were taken during the operation. So if you're squeamish... :shock:
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby reineke » Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:48 pm

lowsocks wrote:
luke wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche wrote:At Schulpforta, Nietzsche received an important grounding in languages—Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and French—so as to be able to read important primary sources;

Maybe we need a new skill level at LLorg of "important grounding" :mrgreen:

Image
Going off-topic, on a bit of a rant... This isn't meant to single out Luke, but one thing I find frustrating is the practice of attributing a quote to someone (usually famous), without any clear indication of a source that would allow one to verify it. Where in Aristotle's works does he say this? At the very least, give the book title (e.g. Physics, Metaphysics, Nichomachean Ethics, Rhetoric...). Of course, giving the chapter would be even better.

Most of the quote collections on the web are completely lacking in this basic information. They give long lists of quotes by, say, Abraham Lincoln, Mark Twain, or Albert Einstein, with absolutely nothing that would help you to verify them.

Some of you could not care less, I suppose. But I make my plea anyway: Please, people, do not follow their lead of poor (or non-existent) scholarship. Include a proper citation.

...end of rant.


Head and Heart: A Quotation Falsely Attributed to Aristotle
MAY 27, 2017 ~ SENTENTIAEANTIQUAE
A twitter correspondent asked me to check on the following quotation often attributed to Aristotle: “Educating the mind without educating the heart is no education at all.” The proliferation of unattributed quotations was one of the reasons we started our twitter feed years back–and tracking down proverbs is something that allows me to procrastinate with purpose!

Here are some quotes attributed to Aristotle by Diogenes Laertius in his Lives of the Eminent Philosophers.

“He said that the root of education is bitter but the fruit is sweet. ”

Τῆς παιδείας ἔφη τὰς μὲν ῥίζας εἶναι πικράς, τὸν δὲ καρπὸν γλυκύν.

“He used to say that three things are needed for education: innate ability, study, and practice.”

τριῶν ἔφη δεῖν παιδείᾳ, φύσεως, μαθήσεως, ἀσκήσεως.

“When asked what the difference was between those who were educated and those who were not, Aristotle said “as great as between the living and the dead.” He used to say that education was an ornament in good times and a refuge in bad. He also believed that teachers should be honored more than parents who merely gave birth. The latter give life, but the former help us live well. “

ἐρωτηθεὶς τίνι διαφέρουσιν οἱ πεπαιδευμένοι τῶν ἀπαιδεύτων, “ὅσῳ,” εἶπεν, “οἱ ζῶντες τῶν τεθνεώτων.” τὴν παιδείαν ἔλεγεν ἐν μὲν ταῖς εὐτυχίαις εἶναι κόσμον, ἐν δὲ ταῖς ἀτυχίαις καταφυγήν. τῶν γονέων τοὺς παιδεύσαντας ἐντιμοτέρους εἶναι τῶν μόνον γεννησάντων· τοὺς μὲν γὰρ τὸ ζῆν, τοὺς δὲ τὸ καλῶς ζῆν παρασχέσθαι.

“When asked what he had gained from philosophy, he said “doing unbidden what some do for fear of the law.”

ἐρωτηθεὶς τί ποτ’ αὐτῷ περιγέγονεν ἐκ φιλοσοφίας, ἔφη, “τὸ ἀνεπιτάκτως ποιεῖν ἅ τινες διὰ τὸν ἀπὸτῶν νόμων φόβον ποιοῦσιν.”

https://sententiaeantiquae.com/2017/05/ ... 0%E2%80%9D

This was fun.


https://quoteinvestigator.com/
https://mashable.com/article/famous-mis ... ted-quotes

Some misattributed quotes are fun and "deep".
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