Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby Pikaia » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:51 pm

Cavesa wrote:
Pikaia wrote:I think there are places that do a good job, but they make it a major focus of formal education, starting very young. The ABC islands and Luxembourg come to mind.


Vast majority of countries is not Luxembourg. Vast majority is poorer than the US. And vast majority of people, who succeed to learn a language, does it in spite of the problems of their schools.

Not all the students have the same opportunities, that's absolutely true. But claiming that vast majority of one of the richest countries on the planet simply cannot afford an extra coursebook or the internet connection, that is simply preposterous.

You don't need to be extra rich or get classes from toddler age in order to get a language or two to B2. But (in some cases nation wide) looking for excuses surely doesn't help.

Referring to the bolded text, I made no such claim. *shrug* However, lack of access to high speed internet is in fact a serious problem for many US students.

My point about Luxembourg was simply a response to another comment, and not broadly applicable to the larger topic.

I do find it interesting that the critical responses to my comments about language education in the US are completely detached from the realities of US education and US teenagers’ lives.
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby Cavesa » Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:08 pm

Pikaia wrote:Referring to the bolded text, I made no such claim. *shrug* However, lack of access to high speed internet is in fact a serious problem for many US students.

My point about Luxembourg was simply a response to another comment, and not broadly applicable to the larger topic.

I do find it interesting that the critical responses to my comments about language education in the US are completely detached from the realities of US education and US teenagers’ lives.


No, you just seem to be oversimplifying the issue and imagining that everybody outside the US actually has it easier, when it comes to learning languages. You picked one of the most exceptional countries, to demonstrate the supposed innocence and hardship of the US students failing (or rather not even seriously trying) to learn a langauge.

Lack of access to high speed internet is in fact a serious problem for many students in most countries. Yours is not at any particular disadvantage, it is an issue everywhere. Just like a lot of the mentioned things. That's a point you seem to miss.

I do find it interesting, that some people refuse any suggestion that success at langauges is dependent on personal responsibility as an offense. I've met quite a lot of people, who have succeeded in spite of their modest background. And many more, who failed in spite of having all the means necessary to succeed. Just because of their laziness.

The problem is, that our civilisation, in spite of all the problems proving otherwise, still considers languages as not too important. And failure to learn them as something normal, while failure to learn maths to a certain level is taken for a problem. That needs to change. Looking for excuses is not the way.

And btw, this thread was not supposed to be just about the US teenagers. Even if we set aside the fact that it was originally very different, I was arguing that vast majority of people everywhere is not learning languages enough. No need to be so self centered.
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby rdearman » Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:23 pm

This entire thread is about one person's idea of what it takes to be considered "Educated". But honestly it is like hunting for a snowflake in the Sahara. Nobody will ever agree what constitutes "educated", and every human and every society will have a different view of this.

In addition, people learn what they are interested in. I have zero interest in knitting, so I don't learn it. If you forced me to learn it I would make a half-arsed attempt and then quit as soon as you walked away. Same with languages unless there is a compelling interest or reason, nobody cares. It isn't just English speakers, there are speakers of Polish, French, Germans, Chinese, Japanese, etc. none of whom give a whistle about learning another language. They might have been forced for a couple of years in school, just like people in other places. They did a half-arsed job of learning something they had no interest in and then dropped it as soon as they were able.

All the knitters in the world can sit around and say how much better the world would be if everyone were forced to learn 6 different types of knots and that all school children should be forced to learn knitting. But the mechanics of the world would argue that knitting is a waste of education and everyone should learn 6 different types of motors to repair.

On average, people spend 60 percent of conversations talking about themselves—and this figure jumps to 80 percent when communicating via social media platforms such as Twitter or Facebook.

Self-interest is what most people would use to consider what it means to be "educated". Mathematicians believe you must know maths, engineers think you need to know electronics, programmers think you need to know how to code. In other words, what they know means they are educated, and therefore to be educated you have to know the things they know.

This thread was started based on the musings of a hyper-polyglot...

Honestly, nobody needs more than one language, unless they need more than one language. Learning more than one language is because you have a need or an interest in learning. If you want or need to learn six then you will, because you need or want to. Otherwise, you'll just get on with your knitting, or motor repair or whatever does interest you.

I would argue that in todays modern information age, where people are bombarded with information constantly they would be better off focusing on their native language in school rather than a half-a-dozen others.

(Author) Jacqueline Wilson revealed that the fan letters she received from English boys and girls were invariably worse-written than letters from foreign students. Fans from abroad, she said, would apologise for their poor English. But their English was better than the English of the English.

I would argue that schools should focus on the basics, reading, writing, maths, science and allow people to develop their own interests and learn by themselves. For example, if each year students had to pick one topic which interested them as an individual, be it languages, programming, knitting, electronics, or whatever, but they have to teach themselves. The school helps them to find resources, or tutoring, or textbooks, but they have to learn themselves. What they would really be teaching is how to be self-taught and that is probably a more useful skill than 5 other languages.

So to quote one of the great minds of the last century.

“Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well I have others.” ― Groucho Marx
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby Pikaia » Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:29 pm

Cavesa wrote:No, you just seem to be oversimplifying the issue and imagining that everybody outside the US actually has it easier, when it comes to learning languages.

You seem to think I am saying or hinting at many things that I most definitely have not. Perhaps there is a language barrier involved. In any case, I am not going to put any further effort into correcting your misrepresentation of my comments.
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby Ug_Caveman » Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:51 pm

Cavesa wrote:I do find it interesting, that some people refuse any suggestion that success at langauges is dependent on personal responsibility as an offense. I've met quite a lot of people, who have succeeded in spite of their modest background. And many more, who failed in spite of having all the means necessary to succeed. Just because of their laziness.


I didn't take offence at the idea that personal responsibility is important for language learning (as it is when learning anything else, especially as an adult), I took offence to the following statements:

Cavesa wrote:To call them lazy is just right, just as the active refusal. Failure to reach B1 after many years of classes is active refusal, unless the person has a health condition making them a worse learner.

So, just let every person choose to get to B2 in two languages and pass an exam, or simply don't go to the university that they are clearly not suited for anyways, as they are too lazy for it.


I've never been a gifted language learner. I failed miserably in school French, Spanish and Latin. It didn't mean I was lazy or didn't try. I did - I did because I wanted to do well so badly, because I wanted to be able to speak, and read, and listen to, and write in other languages. It didn't change the fact that I wasn't a natural linguist, and led to frustration and sadness when I couldn't get my head around grammar rules that were very incongruent with the way my brain processed language.

I'd never have been able to attend university if such a stipulation was placed on my entry. I've graduated with a bachelor of science, a master of science and qualified to be a teacher as a direct result of my work at university. I wasn't "not suited because I was too lazy" - and I resent the suggestion that I am.
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby Pikaia » Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:58 pm

rdearman wrote:This entire thread is about one person's idea of what it takes to be considered "Educated". But honestly it is like hunting for a snowflake in the Sahara. Nobody will ever agree what constitutes "educated", and every human and every society will have a different view of this.

You have reminded me of the very funny exchange in Austen’s Pride & Prejudice between Elizabeth Bennett and Mr. Darcy regarding accomplished women:
(Bingley) “A woman must have a thorough knowledge of music, singing, drawing, dancing, all the modern languages, to deserve the word; and besides all this, she must possess a certain something in her air and manner of walking, the tone of her voice, her address and expressions, or the word will be but half deserved.”

“All this she must possess,” added Darcy, “and to all this she must yet add something more substantial, in the improvement of her mind by extensive reading.”

(Elizabeth) “I am no longer surprised at your knowing only six accomplished women. I rather wonder now at your knowing any.”


rdearman wrote:This thread was started based on the musings of a hyper-polyglot...

And this has reminded me of how some CEOs of tech companies have opined that all students should study coding. It is indeed in their interest to have lots of coders to choose from when hiring!
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby Cavesa » Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:04 pm

Pikaia wrote:
Cavesa wrote:No, you just seem to be oversimplifying the issue and imagining that everybody outside the US actually has it easier, when it comes to learning languages.

You seem to think I am saying or hinting at many things that I most definitely have not. Perhaps there is a language barrier involved. In any case, I am not going to put any further effort into correcting your misrepresentation of my comments.


There is no language barrier involved. It did cost me a lot of time, efforts, money, and suffering, to get to a high level in the langauge you got for free just because of a totally undeserved privilege. Or do you think it was all provided by my school? No, I refused to fail, I was not lazy. When you achieve at least half of what I have, then you can dare to insult my level.

Just reread your posts. I am not misinterpreting anything, and it is extremely offensive to suggest my English is simply not sufficient to understand your thoughts. And I've heard the same stuff many times already.

rdearman wrote:This entire thread is about one person's idea of what it takes to be considered "Educated". But honestly it is like hunting for a snowflake in the Sahara. Nobody will ever agree what constitutes "educated", and every human and every society will have a different view of this.

In addition, people learn what they are interested in. I have zero interest in knitting, so I don't learn it. If you forced me to learn it I would make a half-arsed attempt and then quit as soon as you walked away. Same with languages unless there is a compelling interest or reason, nobody cares. It isn't just English speakers, there are speakers of Polish, French, Germans, Chinese, Japanese, etc. none of whom give a whistle about learning another language. They might have been forced for a couple of years in school, just like people in other places. They did a half-arsed job of learning something they had no interest in and then dropped it as soon as they were able.


Thanks for getting this back on the track. But I find it weird to put languages (=access to sources of information) on the same level of importance as hobbies like knitting.

Yes, there are speakers of many languages, who are not interested in learning other languags. They usually happen to be the same population, that is overall less educated and easier to manipulate. They also tend to be more close minded, more nationalist, less intelligent, less successful, and poorer. The correlation is pretty clear.

Making people learn a foreign language or two gives them freedom. Freedom of movement, freedom of information. And it teaches them that other people and cultures are important and interesting too. It diminishes the self centeredness.


All the knitters in the world can sit around and say how much better the world would be if everyone were forced to learn 6 different types of knots and that all school children should be forced to learn knitting. But the mechanics of the world would argue that knitting is a waste of education and everyone should learn 6 different types of motors to repair.


Will knitting help you to leave the country, if it suddenly stops being safe? Will knitting make you understand your neighbour better? Will knitting make you consider it automatic, than there are more versions to the same story?

Neither will motors repairing.


Honestly, nobody needs more than one language, unless they need more than one language. Learning more than one language is because you have a need or an interest in learning. If you want or need to learn six then you will, because you need or want to. Otherwise, you'll just get on with your knitting, or motor repair or whatever does interest you.

I would argue that in todays modern information age, where people are bombarded with information constantly they would be better off focusing on their native language in school rather than a half-a-dozen others.


People are bombarded with information, and inability to check the sources is a major problem.

And haven't most people in the thread agreed that while 6 might be too much (it's just an idea for fun, to put together lists of 6), 1 is too few? Of course 6 are too much, nobody realistically suggests that for majority of the population. But even one or two already make a world of difference.

(Author) Jacqueline Wilson revealed that the fan letters she received from English boys and girls were invariably worse-written than letters from foreign students. Fans from abroad, she said, would apologise for their poor English. But their English was better than the English of the English.

I would argue that schools should focus on the basics, reading, writing, maths, science and allow people to develop their own interests and learn by themselves. For example, if each year students had to pick one topic which interested them as an individual, be it languages, programming, knitting, electronics, or whatever, but they have to teach themselves. The school helps them to find resources, or tutoring, or textbooks, but they have to learn themselves. What they would really be teaching is how to be self-taught and that is probably a more useful skill than 5 other languages.


I would argue that foreign languages are part of the basics just like maths or history. It's not just for developping their own interests, but also ensuring some level of general knowledge.

But I totally agree with the last point. Teaching people how to learn would be the best. Perhaps the most useful skill for our century. The fact that I often answer even questions like "how do I use a textbook?" (and this one came even from my relatives), that's a proof schools are really failing.
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby Cavesa » Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:18 pm

Ug_Caveman wrote:
Cavesa wrote:To call them lazy is just right, just as the active refusal. Failure to reach B1 after many years of classes is active refusal, unless the person has a health condition making them a worse learner.

So, just let every person choose to get to B2 in two languages and pass an exam, or simply don't go to the university that they are clearly not suited for anyways, as they are too lazy for it.


I've never been a gifted language learner. I failed miserably in school French, Spanish and Latin. It didn't mean I was lazy or didn't try. I did - I did because I wanted to do well so badly, because I wanted to be able to speak, and read, and listen to, and write in other languages. It didn't change the fact that I wasn't a natural linguist, and led to frustration and sadness when I couldn't get my head around grammar rules that were very incongruent with the way my brain processed language.

I'd never have been able to attend university if such a stipulation was placed on my entry. I've graduated with a bachelor of science, a master of science and qualified to be a teacher as a direct result of my work at university. I wasn't "not suited because I was too lazy" - and I resent the suggestion that I am.


I'm sorry you feel that way, I didn't mean to offend you. But why didn't you learn a language the same way as you are learning now? Probably because there was no pressure. No guidance, that is a problem for sure. But no pressure. If you had had to show a B2 certificate in order to go to university, I have no doubts you would have succeeded no matter the cost. Exactly because you are not lazy.
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby einzelne » Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:46 pm

Cavesa wrote:Yes, there are speakers of many languages, who are not interested in learning other languags. They usually happen to be the same population, that is overall less educated and easier to manipulate. They also tend to be more close minded, more nationalist, less intelligent, less successful, and poorer. The correlation is pretty clear.


Zero correlation. I've witnessed lots of nasty nationalistic sh*t from Russian expats, both in Europe and the States. Some of them are big fans of such conspiracy theories you wouldn't believe it.

As for freedom, well, if you're not a highly qualified professional, nobody gives a hoot about how many languages you can speak. And you're talking as if the moment you pass your Goethe Exam or TOEFL, they immediately send you a citizenship card with your scores, as a nice bonus.
Last edited by einzelne on Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby Ug_Caveman » Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:52 pm

Cavesa wrote:
Ug_Caveman wrote:I've never been a gifted language learner. I failed miserably in school French, Spanish and Latin. It didn't mean I was lazy or didn't try. I did - I did because I wanted to do well so badly, because I wanted to be able to speak, and read, and listen to, and write in other languages. It didn't change the fact that I wasn't a natural linguist, and led to frustration and sadness when I couldn't get my head around grammar rules that were very incongruent with the way my brain processed language.

I'd never have been able to attend university if such a stipulation was placed on my entry. I've graduated with a bachelor of science, a master of science and qualified to be a teacher as a direct result of my work at university. I wasn't "not suited because I was too lazy" - and I resent the suggestion that I am.


I'm sorry you feel that way, I didn't mean to offend you. But why didn't you learn a language the same way as you are learning now? Probably because there was no pressure. No guidance, that is a problem for sure. But no pressure. If you had had to show a B2 certificate in order to go to university, I have no doubts you would have succeeded no matter the cost. Exactly because you are not lazy.


My school refused to let me drop French, even though it was beginning to impact my studies in other subjects and my frustration at my lack of progress was having a very negative effect on my mental health - I remember crying for over an hour to my mum at how genuinely upset I was that I just couldn't "get it" (I've long suspected their refusal to let me drop it was in part because my teachers knew how much I wanted to do well and so I could have *something* to show for the years of work.)

I had fantastic French teachers at school, all of whom I can safely look back on and recall as some of my very favourites. The subject though? It never clicked with me. No matter how much time and effort went in. Spanish was the same story. Latin went off a cliff as soon as they introduced the dative case (which was particularly gutting for me, as the many stories and historical facts of Ancient Rome in Latin classes captured my imagination far more than the constant relearning of Henry VIII and his wives in history lessons the British education system insists on.)

I wasn't cut out for language study - I certainly would never have achieved a B2 standard on school-based learning alone. That is equivalent to a high pass in an A-level exam - I got a minimal pass at the far easier GCSE exam, with the benefit of considerably more input from teachers that most students normally got in preparation.

I found Dutch by accident as the only language (so far) I've had few issues with. I still have major doubts on my ability to pass an A2 exam (an am currently cramming last minute notes for that exam on Monday), although my Dutch level now is easily better than the level of French I had aged 16. I didn't know about Assimil or Michel Thomas or Pimsleur or Linguaphone when I was 14/15/16 - maybe if I did things could be different, but even those aren't enough to bring someone to a high enough standard for a B2 level qualification.

I'm not disagreeing with you on the genuine importance of language learning, I think modern language standards in the UK (and especially in England) are very poor, but I can't agree with you that barring people access to higher education is the way to improve them. In such a world I would never have achieved the things I have from my hard work in science, engineering and (currently) education.
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