Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

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Pikaia
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby Pikaia » Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:14 pm

David1917 wrote:It's still lazy to just do the bare minimum and not seek to learn for learning's sake. We have idiotic terms like "nerd" to describe people that take learning seriously. Do the nerds who get A's in language classes and actually learn to speak the language actively refuse to not learn? Is it just pure luck for a student to somehow learn a language they have no "access" to learning?

This is such a strange conversation. I am one of those straight A nerds who left high school without attaining any significant level of proficiency in the languages I studied. I am not at all unusual. World language instruction in US schools does not have a great track record. This is hardly new news. And yes, there IS an element of chance involved. Not all students have the same opportunities. Again, not new news.
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby einzelne » Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:36 pm

In my younger and more vulnerable years my father gave me some advice that I’ve been turning over in my mind ever since.
“Whenever you feel like criticizing any one,” he told me, “just remember that all the people in this world haven’t had the advantages that you’ve had.”
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby IronMike » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:37 am

einzelne wrote:
IronMike wrote:Why? Just the idea, or the language itself?


It's an abominable Frankenstein to my ears. No culture and living experience behind it. Plus economically and pragmatically, conlangs don't have any potential. Some of them are intriguing curios in the cabinet of curiosities to explore over the weekend but that's about it.

OK, your opinion. I'll ignore it as I return to reading my novel about the experiences of prisoners of war during WWI who learned Esperanto, then were purged during Soviet times, while listening to La Pafklik, followed by a Zoom meet with my Esperanto friends in Russia, to discuss their postcard pen-pal project. Oh wait, I forgot! I've meant to read Dr. Alòs i Font's article on the standardization of the Chuvash language. I should work on that first. No wait. I should stop with Esperanto in favor of a language with more economic potential.

:roll:
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby golyplot » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:29 am

Pikaia wrote: World language instruction in US schools does not have a great track record. This is hardly new news.


Does it have a great track record anywhere? I suspect that most language learning takes place outside of school.
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby einzelne » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:54 am

IronMike wrote:OK, your opinion.


Hey, you asked! :D No need to rehash the same old debates about Esperanto. The arguments from both sides are well known.

I never learn languages for languages sake. The cultural archive has to be really big to convince me to start a new language.
I don't have time to learn all the languages I would like to know. Heck, I don't even have enough time to read everything I want to read in the languages I already know! And since there's zero practical reason for learning Esperanto (it failed to become lingua franca), you won't change my mind.
Last edited by einzelne on Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby Pikaia » Wed Apr 28, 2021 2:22 am

golyplot wrote:
Pikaia wrote: World language instruction in US schools does not have a great track record. This is hardly new news.


Does it have a great track record anywhere? I suspect that most language learning takes place outside of school.

I think there are places that do a good job, but they make it a major focus of formal education, starting very young. The ABC islands and Luxembourg come to mind.
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby Cavesa » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:13 pm

Well, we were talking and theorising about what would be right, what would make people understand the world or succeed better. How did we get from that to the usual touchiness of some people from some of the most privileged countries on the planet?

Thank you for understanding this point perfectly, David1917 and golyplot.

Pikaia wrote:I think there are places that do a good job, but they make it a major focus of formal education, starting very young. The ABC islands and Luxembourg come to mind.


Vast majority of countries is not Luxembourg. Vast majority is poorer than the US. And vast majority of people, who succeed to learn a language, does it in spite of the problems of their schools.

Not all the students have the same opportunities, that's absolutely true. But claiming that vast majority of one of the richest countries on the planet simply cannot afford an extra coursebook or the internet connection, that is simply preposterous.

You don't need to be extra rich or get classes from toddler age in order to get a language or two to B2. But (in some cases nation wide) looking for excuses surely doesn't help.
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby chove » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:31 pm

I think it's just that native English speakers don't have much pressing need for a language, and it's always harder to learn something you don't need. It doesn't make them bad people, even if ideally we'd all know another language or two to experience the world with. It's easier these days with the internet (the main reason I didn't learn much from high school German is that there was nobody to use it with outside the classroom), but people have different priorities and there's an awful lot of other things we could be learning. I'm not sure how useful it would be to force people to learn a language they'll rarely use.

I do think English speakers have a lot of privilege in being lucky to be born into the current lingua franca, but it kind of feels like people are suggesting punishing that luck because it's not fair? Or do I misunderstand the discussions?
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby rdearman » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:37 pm

There is a saying in English; you can bring a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.
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Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby lowsocks » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:36 pm

rdearman wrote:There is a saying in English; you can bring a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.
True. But can you give the equivalent idiom in at least six languages, without needing to look anything up? And, apart from a few super-polyglots, can anyone? ;)
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