Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

General discussion about learning languages
User avatar
einzelne
Blue Belt
Posts: 804
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:33 pm
Languages: Russan (N), English (Working knowledge), French (Reading), German (Reading), Italian (Reading on Kindle)
x 2882

Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby einzelne » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:02 pm

Le Baron wrote:Monograph by either R.J. Hollingdale or Gerald Kaufman.


You mean Walter Kaufmann? Anyway, Nietzsche didn't speak or even read Turkish. Actually, he didn't care that much about modern languages. Hollingdale himself writes: "He read Shakespeare and Byron in German translation, he never learned to master Italian even when living in Italy, and he could read French only with the help of a dictionary"(source)
2 x

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3510
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9384

Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby Le Baron » Tue Jan 04, 2022 6:09 pm

einzelne wrote:
Le Baron wrote:Monograph by either R.J. Hollingdale or Gerald Kaufman.


You mean Walter Kaufmann? Anyway, Nietzsche didn't speak or even read Turkish. Actually, he didn't care that much about modern languages. Hollingdale himself writes: "He read Shakespeare and Byron in German translation, he never learned to master Italian even when living in Italy, and he could read French only with the help of a dictionary"(source)


Yes, I've gone mad. Gerald Kaufman is the recently-deceased MP. I'm going to have to find where I read what I read and to check if my memory has collapsed. I'll start in the notes for The Gay Science. Maybe it was merely that he 'classed' it as a classical language (which it was).
0 x

User avatar
luke
Brown Belt
Posts: 1243
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:09 pm
Languages: English (N). Spanish (intermediate), Esperanto (B1), French (intermediate but rusting)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16948
x 3631

Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby luke » Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:14 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche wrote:At Schulpforta, Nietzsche received an important grounding in languages—Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and French—so as to be able to read important primary sources;

Maybe we need a new skill level at LLorg of "important grounding" :mrgreen:

Image
2 x
: 124 / 124 Cien años de soledad 20x
: 5479 / 5500 5500 pages - Reading
: 51 / 55 FSI Basic Spanish 3x
: 309 / 506 Camino a Macondo

User avatar
reineke
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3570
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:34 pm
Languages: Fox (C4)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6979
x 6554

Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby reineke » Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:33 pm

“A Europe of polyglots is not a Europe of people who speak many languages fluently, but, in the best case scenario, of people who can communicate, each speaking his own language and understanding that of the other. People who, while not being able to speak it fluently, by understanding it, even with difficulty, would understand the “spirit”, the cultural universe that every one expresses when speaking the language of his ancestors and of his own tradition.”

Umberto Eco

Also re: “I understand everything, but I can’t speak”
5 x

User avatar
einzelne
Blue Belt
Posts: 804
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:33 pm
Languages: Russan (N), English (Working knowledge), French (Reading), German (Reading), Italian (Reading on Kindle)
x 2882

Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby einzelne » Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:25 pm

Le Baron wrote:I'll start in the notes for The Gay Science. Maybe it was merely that he 'classed' it as a classical language (which it was).


It's funny that you brought up Nietzsche in this thread. I started to learn German partially to read writers like him in the original. Now I know much time, energy, and effort it takes to master even one language to enjoy classics in the original, the whole idea of 6 languages seems absurd and ludicrous. I heard that in his 'positivistic' period he complained a lot about classical education. He was interested in sciences but, alas, it was too late for him.
3 x

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3510
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9384

Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby Le Baron » Tue Jan 04, 2022 9:59 pm

reineke wrote:“A Europe of polyglots is not a Europe of people who speak many languages fluently, but, in the best case scenario, of people who can communicate, each speaking his own language and understanding that of the other. People who, while not being able to speak it fluently, by understanding it, even with difficulty, would understand the “spirit”, the cultural universe that every one expresses when speaking the language of his ancestors and of his own tradition.”

Umberto Eco

Also re: “I understand everything, but I can’t speak”

Probably true, though it clashes with the EU's stated aims of multilingualism. It also clashes with their rather romanced version of reality.

I'm ambivalent about mutual intelligibility. I know it obviously exists in differing capacities between related languages, though that depends on the person. I know a Spaniard who talks to the man who sells 'Broodje Carlo' in Utrecht and he's Italian. I can tell the Italian in this case can understand Spanish better than vice-versa. Before Christmas I renewed contact with an old friend, who was the first 'friend' (as in not colleague or contact) I met when I came to NL. She's Italian and said she could understand Spanish and French, but could neither understand me nor reply to me in French. In many cases it's a weird sort of pride thing the Romance language natives have, where they widely claim to be sons and daughters of Latin all together. Then in secret the Spaniards say: 'But French is unpronounceable, and I'm hopeless at it!'
2 x

User avatar
iguanamon
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2353
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:14 am
Location: Virgin Islands
Languages: Speaks: English (Native); Spanish (C2); Portuguese (C2); Haitian Creole (C1); Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol (C1); Lesser Antilles French Creole (B2)
Studies: Catalan
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=797
x 14190

Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby iguanamon » Tue Jan 04, 2022 10:38 pm

It takes a while to read a thread, this long- twenty pages. I am reminded of the Buddhist koan
Chinese Buddhist monk Linji Yixuan wrote:If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.

This doesn't mean that if you see the actual Siddhartha Guatma (which would be a miracle or time travel) to kill him. The monk was talking about killing the idea of the Buddha proffered by various people who feel that they have the "one, true answer" as to Buddha. Those who are seeking enlightenment must find it on their own, make it a part of themselves.

"Six languages an educated person should know" reminds me of "the great books". This was popularized by Clifton Fadiman around 60 years ago in the US as "The Lifetime Reading Plan". I found the old book in a dusty used book shop when I was in university, bought it and read it. I was inspired. I've read about a quarter of the books on the list. I intended to finish it, but I was also intrigued by modern literature. The modern literature was more about what I was experiencing. It was good, well written and fascinating.

Over time, and with the advent of the internet and the realization of diversity, I knew I needed to read more about the background of the situation in my own country. Fadiman's list left out a lot of great books written by people all over the world who weren't "western", or male. Towards the end of his life in the 1990's, Fadiman made an attempt to rectify this and came out with The New Lifetime Reading Plan. He had a co-author for this project. Still, whether one person's opinion or two, regardless of Fadiman's intellectual credentials.... "who died and left him boss"?

The study of "Classic literature" is certainly worthwhile... but so is the study of Latin American literature, French literature, Caribbean literature, African Literature, Asian literature, etc. I've gained wisdom from reading Trinidadian author V.S. Naipaul as well as Jane Austin and Charles Dickens. Who is to say that Voltaire's "Candide" is more valid than Douglas Adams' "Hitchhiker's Guide" trilogy? A case can be made for both. Is "Cien años de soledad" by Gabo more worthy than "El amor en los tiempos de cólera"? I enjoyed the second more than the first.

The idea of being "well educated" today encompasses any of the many diverse disciplines, all of which are worthy. There's a reason universities require engineering students to take some humanities classes in addition to their field of study.

I would love to be able to read Homer, Virgil Plato, Aristotle, Aurelius, Goethe, Voltaire, Kafka, Tolstoy and Thucydides in the original. When I chose to learn languages, I wanted to be a better citizen of the Americas by learning Spanish, Portuguese and Haitian Creole. I could keep going with Mayan, Quechua, Guarani, Sranan Tongo, French and Papiamento, but my interests lead me to Djudeo-espanyol and Catalan. I have read Tolstoy in four languages that aren't Russian... including Catalan and Haitian Creole.

Granted, we know here that translations can be a poor substitute for an original. Still, with a life, a business and a family... having learned a few languages to a high level, I know how much work is involved in getting to a point where one can master a language enough to be able to read with ease. My hat is off to anyone who can do this in six languages.

Had I chosen to follow Prof A's list, I wouldn't have discovered the beauty and wonder of Haitian Creole. I would not have known the pleasure of reading Djudeo-espanyol from right to left in Rashi and Solitreo and discovering the Sephardic people. I would have never known the amazing literature and humor of Portuguese- from Africa, Brazil and, yes, Portugal. I would have never have met some of my friends.

Yeah, we all make our choices. It is simply not possible to learn every language on the planet. Reading the best of world literature in the past 6,000 years would take many lifetimes. On a more frivolous note, I can't even watch all the deserving tv series that are available now in the era of "peak tv" in English, let alone in Spanish, Portuguese, and Catalan. Heaven help me if I learn Russian, Mandarin, and Arabic!

All this being said, if I can paraphrase Goethe, it is the struggle that has meaning. Fadiman's flawed lifetime reading plan is still worthy (especially if diversity is added). Is my reading 25% of the books on his list "enough"? This is highly subjective. Are Prof A's six languages more valid than my choices? Maybe for him, but not for me. I am happy with the languages I have chosen.
15 x

User avatar
Iversen
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4768
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:36 pm
Location: Denmark
Languages: Monolingual travels in Danish, English, German, Dutch, Swedish, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Italian, Romanian and (part time) Esperanto
Ahem, not yet: Norwegian, Afrikaans, Platt, Scots, Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Greek, Latin, Irish, Indonesian and a few more...
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1027
x 14962

Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby Iversen » Wed Jan 05, 2022 1:51 am

The recommandation seems to be to cover four categories (1. Classical languages of one’s own culture, 2. Major living languages of one’s broader culture, 3. The international language, 4. Exotic languages) with at least 6 languages.

I doubt that my level in Indonesian allows me to claim just one single exotic language (I assume that by exotic you mean a language from another continent and not just something weird like Irish), and I haven't learnt any kind of of Ancient Greek because I fear it would interfere with my study of Modern Greek. So I apparently fail to meet the criteria for been an educated person -whooah. But in spite of being a failure I'm reasonably well covered when it comes to the European languages, including their old forms - actually with more than six languages that can be used for unaided casual reading.

So what bothers me it not so much the quantitative suggestions, but more the assumption that you would use your skills to read great literary works from the past (plus a few works of philosophical nature). Argüelles used the word polyliteracy about this idealized state. I remember that during the golden age of HTLAL I claimed that if polyglotism literally is mastering several languages, then polyliteracy should be defined as the ability to read several languages without specifying the choice of texts. By common consent simple literacy can be demonstrated by reading anything from comics to tax laws so why should the multiple version be restricted to literature? Well, some HTLAL members didn't agree with me on this (and didn't hesitate to mention this), but even though I actually have read a fair number of the socalled great books I don't see that as the goal of my language learning. I'm actually more interested in being able to read Wikipedia and touristical homepages and the news in twenty languages than I am in reading one more novel in Italian or German or an outdated scientific treatise in Latin, and I think culture (past and present) can be studied just as well through such sources as through literature.

Specifically concerning raw science (which is one of my main interests) I acknowledge that it would be a laudable achievement to get through Newton's Principia in Latin, but even though his results still are relevant for science his notation isn't, and I leave it with glee to dedicated science historians to study the original text. Science is not like literature where the original work is the one that counts - science should be studied from the current perspective, and in the case of Newton that means to see his results in the light of later contributions by Einstein and others. This doesn't preclude me from scorning those lamentable language impaired pseudo-historians or other pseudo-scientists (on any topic) who believe that they can study a subject through translations and summaries and comments alone, but in most cases I don't claim to be a specialist so I don't need to go back to the original sources if they aren't captivating in themselves.

As for history: well, just to mention one example, I have read parts of Gesta Danorum by Saxo Grammaticus in Latin, and especially the last parts are far too detailed (And boring) for me as a contemporary Dane. I don't need all that information about the author's own time. And the same can be said about many other historical sources (some of which I only have read in translation): if you really are interested in a certain period and some events that happened during that period you may appreciate the wealth of details in the old sources, but my primary need is to get an overview so I can avoid reading all the old stuff myself - or dive into specific parts of the documentation, like I for instance have done with the Anglosaxon chronicles, but then I might still prefer to consult a recent overview by a qualified specialist to tell me where to look.

Or said in other words: I have read things like Os Lusiadas, the first book of La Divina Commeddia, De Bello Punico, Beowulf, Havamál, Henry IV + V, Et Drömspel, Le Bateau Ivre etc. etc. etc. etc. - but in practice I spend more time on Wikipedia and my daily newspaper.
7 x

User avatar
einzelne
Blue Belt
Posts: 804
Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:33 pm
Languages: Russan (N), English (Working knowledge), French (Reading), German (Reading), Italian (Reading on Kindle)
x 2882

Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby einzelne » Wed Jan 05, 2022 2:59 am

As a matter of fact, well-educated persons never, ever in the history of mankind have had to know six languages. Case closed.
5 x

User avatar
Le Baron
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3510
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2021 5:14 pm
Location: Koude kikkerland
Languages: English (N), fr, nl, de, eo, Sranantongo,
Maintaining: es, swahili.
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18796
x 9384

Re: Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby Le Baron » Wed Jan 05, 2022 4:58 pm

einzelne wrote:As a matter of fact, well-educated persons never, ever in the history of mankind have had to know six languages. Case closed.

I'm very much inclined to agree. They would be speaking their mother tongue and then investing themselves in the dominant scientific/cultural language of the era: be it a form of Chinese, Greek, Latin, whatever, or much later English. Instances where people might have needed more than one language such as e.g. in Central Europe when it had much more fluid boundaries would have been or are just practical and individual.

Imo though some information is 'contained' in some languages, very little is untranslatable and sharing of information only requires that there be a shared medium of communication. An educated person needs to be 'educated' not a polyglot.
4 x


Return to “General Language Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: JLS and 2 guests