Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

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Six languages an educated person should know (Prof. Argüelles)

Postby Mount Everest » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:23 am

I read about one topic on Reddit, supposedly written somewhere else by A. Arguelles. I'm not sure about it because I couldn't find the original source. I don't understand the context in which it was quoted. Anyway, what are your opinion about the six most important languages to learn?

"
A.A. believes that we should all learn six languages that fall into four categories:

1. Classical languages of one’s own culture.
2. Major living languages of one’s broader culture.
3. The international language.
4. Exotic languages.

Examples:

A well-educated Westerner should know: a) Latin & Greek, b) English & French, Spanish or German, c) Russian, and d) Persian or Arabic or Sanskrit or Hindi or Chinese or

A well-educated Middle-Easterner should know: a) Arabic, b) Persian, Turkish, & Hebrew, c) English & French, and d) Latin or Urdu or Japanese or

A well-educated Indian should know: a) Sanskrit & Persian or Arabic, b) Hindi/Urdu & Bengali, Marathi or Gujarati or, c) English, and d) Italian or Korean or Swahili or

A well-educated Easterner should know: a) Classical Chinese, b) Mandarin, Japanese, & Korean, c) English, and d) Greek or Pali or Persian or

And so on.

The first category gives us insight into our past, our present and possibly even our future.

The second category helps us to understand the cultures that surround us or that are close to us.

The third category puts us in touch with the world at large.

The fourth category broadens us and challenges us to look at the world in a very different way.


First of all, I don't know if the examples were written by Arguelles himself or by the user.

Do you agree with the languages he chose for well educated people around the world? Would you add some other categories?

What I thought it was missing is the well educated people in African continent. How would you divide African continent and which languages would you write as examples?
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Re: Six most important languages

Postby jonm » Wed Apr 22, 2020 1:51 pm

The original post can be found here (message 23, partway down the page, and it's in reply to message 22).

Professor Arguelles wrote:I have gotten into trouble for this before, so let me begin by clarifying that when I say an educated person “should” know half a dozen languages, I mean this “should” as an attainable goal to be striven for, not as a criterion for judgment that anyone who does not know this many is not well-educated. Since contemporary culture does not hold up this goal, individual products of its educational systems are hardly to blame if they have not attained it. Also, I certainly do not believe that linguistic knowledge is the only measure of a good education—there are many other things I believe a well-educated person “should” know, but since this is a forum about languages, I only discuss this here. I do believe that for self-motivated lovers of languages, this is an attainable goal that should be striven for, and I have several distinctly different reasons for this belief:

1. Ample anthropological evidence that it is normal for normal individuals from truly multilingual societies such as parts of Africa and India to know half a dozen languages. Obvious thus it is in the standard capacity of the human mind to know and use this many languages if the environment is right, and I think that concentrated intelligence and diligence should be able to match the quality of early childhood immersion.

2. Ample textual evidence that this goal was attained in the not-so-distant past. Look at any scholarly tome from the 19th century and you will see that no translations are provided for quotations from other languages—if the book is written in English, translations will certainly be provided for Chinese or Sanskrit or Persian or Arabic, but NOT for Latin or Greek or French or German or Spanish or Italian. Obviously it was a reasonable and justified assumption that anyone who would read such a book would be able to read these languages. There is a common belief that the explosion of knowledge in our era has forced us to become specialists while these old fellows had the leisure to spend time on languages because there was so little breadth in their fields. I used to believe this myself, but it is simply not true. The range, the breadth, the depth, the quality, and the quantity of 19th century scholarship measured against the output of contemporary scholars in the same field is incomparably greater. Obviously, linguistic range facilitated flexibility of mind while its absence narrows it. At any rate, if our great-grandfathers could do this, why can’t we?

3. Ample linguistic evidence that half a dozen languages is a boundary mark. For those who have not reached it, the study of foreign languages is generally a hard task in which success is always uncertain, while for those who have reached it, the acquisition of further languages is no longer difficult. Given that languages are the fundamental element in human thought and communication, In the course of a lifetime, an awakened mind may well wish to acquire a new one, and so knowledge of this many is the fundamental base that one should have in order to assure the ability to acquire others at will.

4. Ample sociological and demographic evidence that the languages of the world are in great and grave danger of extinction now that the era of global languages has arrived. From the standpoint of communication this may well be a good thing, but from the standpoint of cultural preservation, it is a disaster. The only way to prevent the literary and cultural legacies of the past from being lost is to encourage the study of the languages that are their vehicles. If the general expectation that educated individuals should know this many languages can somehow, ideally, be established, then I think there is some hope for cultural preservation, even if the world of the future speaks only one language.


I really like your idea of what your 7 languages should be, taking one language from many different civilizations. This is a true ideal, one that I am consciously trying to provide for my sons, born of a Western father and an Eastern mother, by moving to and raising them in Arabia, with plans to move to India within a decade. However, most human beings are infinitely more culture bound, and when it comes to learning languages, culture is a critical factor. For a European, learning other familiar European tongues is one thing, while mastering exotic tongues is geometrically more difficult and consequently time consuming. The kind of range you suggest is probably attainable only for those such as members of this forum whose major focus is on languages, and I did mean my “should” to refer to all educated individuals, whatever their fields of interest or concentration.

I do not believe there is any particular half a dozen formulaic languages that can be prescribed for all people because the issue is so culture bound. In general, I think that well-educated individuals in my ideal world should know a) the classical language(s) of their own civilization, b) the major living languages of their broader culture, c) the international language (English) if this is not one of these or a semi-exotic if it is, and d) one exotic language of their own choosing. For example:

A well-educated Westerner “should” know: a) Latin & Greek, b) English & French, Spanish or German, c) Russian, and d) Persian or Arabic or Sanskrit or Hindi or Chinese or…

A well-educated Middle-Easterner “should” know: a) Arabic, b) Persian, Turkish, & Hebrew, c) English & French, and d) Latin or Urdu or Japanese or…

A well-educated Indian “should” know: a) Sanskrit & Persian or Arabic, b) Hindi/Urdu & Bengali, Marathi or Gujarati or…, c) English, and d) Italian or Korean or Swahili or…

A well-educated Easterner “should” know: a) Classical Chinese, b) Mandarin, Japanese, & Korean, c) English, and d) Greek or Pali or Persian or…

And so on.
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Re: Six most important languages

Postby tungemål » Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:17 pm

Interesting topic, and while I respect and like this idea of which languages one should learn as an educated person, I don't agree with it.

1 First of all, I think a well-educated person today only needs to know English. To know English well, becomes more and more essential, I think. Not only for westerners, but for all people. The world is getting smaller...

2 But since this is a language forum, let me agree that one should know a few more languages. In that case, except for English, what languages you choose to learn should be completely up to you. No matter what language you choose I think it will broaden your mind. I don't think it will make you a better person to learn Latin instead of Japanese, for instance. But by all means, learn Latin if that is where your interest lies.

3 Apart from the above, my personal opinion of what six languages you "should" learn (since you asked): They should include English, as the international language, another major language or two of ones culture, e.g. for me German and Spanish, one language that is more foreign (to expand ones horizon), and maybe one language that you've got some personal connection with. To learn an old version of ones own language is also a nice idea (old Norse, or old English). I think people should consider a wider array of languages instead of only considering the ones that are traditionally studied: German, French, Spanish, Italian.
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Re: Six most important languages

Postby gsbod » Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:23 pm

On the one hand I find this list of languages one should know to be a bit too prescriptive and, dare I say it, elitist. On the other hand, the idea that a reasonably intelligent person should expect to be able to learn to speak 4 languages and read a further two, assuming that 4 or 5 of these languages are closely related to your native language and/or culture (and, I'm assuming, includes your native language), seems to be both reasonable and, in a way, quite motivational.

As for what these languages ought to be, I'd adapt the list above and consider learning to speak one or two languages of your neighbours (including consideration of any local minority languages), one or two languages with a relatively wide geographical reach (e.g. English, Spanish, Arabic, Russian, Chinese...), and (optionally) a semi-exotic or exotic language that interests you, or a language important for your professional field if it doesn't fit with the above. For the reading languages, you could go for dead languages if you wish (whether related to your culture or not), or living languages that are important for literature, science, or your professional field.

So for me I could go for something like:

Speaking:
1. English (native language)
2. German (neighbour)
3. Welsh (local minority)
4. Spanish (global language)

Reading:
5. French (for literature)
6. Japanese (for literature)

And I think it would be achievable, given that I can tick off three of those languages already and am halfway there with Japanese (although it may still be easier if I replaced Japanese with Latin or Old English or something).
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Re: Six most important languages

Postby tarvos » Wed Apr 22, 2020 5:57 pm

It's fairly elitist, but you know, it's Arguelles. I don't think he'd argue with that.

As for me I've got this part down (except I never studied ancient Greek, but I'm Dutch, so yeah).
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Re: Six most important languages

Postby Speakeasy » Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:34 pm

From the Merriam-Webster online dictionary:
Definition of elitist
1: one who is an adherent of elitism : one whose attitudes and beliefs are biased in favor of a socially elite class of peopleOn many issues, they seem to be populists rather than elitists—believers that people can make decisions for themselves better than elites can.— Michael BaroneDerided by elitists as phony, the … movement is spontaneous, decentralized, frequently amateurish and sometimes shrill.— Karl Rove
2: a person who is or regards himself or herself as a member of a socially elite groupHe's too rich, too polished—he's an elitist in a party that has become home to disaffected white, working-class voters.— Joe KleinHe was an elitist, who esteemed himself better than Americans from most classes of the population.— Louis Filler

I find it particularly discouraging, although not in the least surprising, that the epithet “elitist” should be bandied about so easily and applied so quickly and callously to someone for their having committed the apparent “offense” of suggesting that others might wish to acquaint themselves with a selection of the languages and cultures of the ancient and modern worlds. And, this, on a language forum! I sense here, a degree of “reverse elitism” where learning say, Swahili, is "morally superior" to learning Ancient Greek or Sanskrit.
Last edited by Speakeasy on Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Six most important languages

Postby LaMancha » Wed Apr 22, 2020 6:34 pm

Hmm, interesting post

I've read all the quoted Arguelles post, and he had some points I agree with him at.

His notion of well-educated sounds a little bit old-fashioned to me though, as 19th century well-education :lol: Shall well-educated Chinese learn all the classics by heart, as until the 19th, to be well-educated?

Anyway I get the point of studying classical Latin and Greek. I did it myself at highschool for two years, of course at a relatively low level, but it decently widened my knowledge of my mother language, spanish. This also addresses for other new romance languages.
And putting chinese language as an example, last year I attended a classical chinese class at uni, which helped me progress much more and with a greater understanding of the language when studying nowadays mandarin. I guess it would even be even more pronunciated with classical arabic.

I admire the person who can dedicate the time to those while having a job and family. :lol:
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Re: Six most important languages

Postby Chung » Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:45 pm

FWIW, some of us also followed up Argüelles opinion in this thread. My view hasn't changed.

On January 25, 2011 in “Arguelles' Six Most Important Languages” at how-to-learn-any-language.com, Chung wrote:Excellent point, Lucky Charms. Why should we unduly glorify or elevate norms from the 18th or 19th centuries? If I remember correctly, I can think of some controversial (some would say negative) aspects of the human experience which had their origin from that period (e.g. nationalism, the "White man's burden", robber-baron capitalism, communism etc.)

What I find is that the Professor seems to also be doing what we all do from time to time: That is look at the past, thinking "Oh, but things were so much better then!". You simply don't meet many people these days who study languages to fluency for the hell of it or even for intellectual purposes. In a certain way we can attribute this to the rise of English, but even starting in the Renaissance, the "dead languages" started to become "really dead" through the elevation of vernaculars thus calling into question whether those "dead languages" were really the only "proper" vehicles to describe or express hallowed wisdom or new ideas.

We can see this in comparing how many languages Einstein and Newton spoke or knew. As far as I can tell, Einstein was fluent in English and German, but had trouble with English spelling, and possibly had some passive ability in Greek and/or Latin (this is only my guess). Newton as far as I could figure was fluent in Early Modern English and very likely had a strong command of Latin (he did write his findings in Latin). He probably also knew some Ancient Greek and Ancient Hebrew since he was supposedly a biblical scholar.

Right away this should illustrate how the world has changed. The number of languages used by educated folk has shrunk. Any scholar in Newton's day or earlier, had to learn at least 2 other languages to go with the native tongue. This wasn't to show off how educated one was compared to the peons, but to be able to communicate or exchange ideas with like-minded scholars from other lands. By Einstein's day things had changed, and Einstein's apparent lack of fluency in anything other than English and German didn't bar him from acheiving scientific greatness, seeing that public education created a growing pool of people with the right amount of knowledge to begin understanding his theories, not to mention being literate in standard English or standard German. Now, it's changed a bit more, and it's quite common for educated people in the English-speaking world to get by on just English (with translations into English as required). Noam Chomsky is an example of this since with the exception of not being a polyglot in the mold of those scholars of yore who were fluent in several dead languages, he's still considered a scholar (in addition to being a rabble-rouser, but I digress...)

One thing is that there can sometimes be a bit of snobbery between what Juan calls "scholars" and "professionals" both of whom are often educated. I remember in my undergraduate days how some of my classmates studying humanities or even social sciences took pot shots at the engineers calling them plumbers or bemoaned how those studying mathematics had it easy, since students of the humanities had to write essays which were open-ended and while those dealing with a problem in mathematics could count on things leading to one answer. It goes back to my point where it's arrogant to ascribe undue importance to one's own field of study or academic interest. Everything has its place and the trick (which is often lost on many people) is not to lose sight of the big picture.


As for the six most important languages that an educated person should learn, I'm in no position to do the thinking for that person.

For me, an educated person (if I do say so myself), I'd be happy to cap myself at these six to go with my native English: Finnish (or Italian), French, German, Hungarian, Polish, Slovak. If the conditions were good enough, I'd happily bust this limit and try to improve my Azeri, Korean, Northern Saami, Turkish and Ukrainian or even start (re)studying Afrikaans, Indonesian, Mongolian, Rusyn, Tajik or Turkmen. I'm just not in it for ancient languages but horses for courses.
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Re: Six most important languages

Postby Cavesa » Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:51 pm

These are good suggestions by Prof.Arguelles. Yes, definitely not too practical for some things, but let's not forget that one of the main purposes of foreign languages, as he approaches them, is reading the great books in original. From that point of view, these lists make perfect sense.

There are more ways to put such lists together, if redefine the purpose of learning the languages. I wouldn't necessarily go by these four categories, now in the 21st century:
1. Classical languages of one’s own culture.
2. Major living languages of one’s broader culture.
3. The international language.
4. Exotic languages.

In the 21st century, and if we agreed that 6 was a nice number for whatever reason, I'd propose a bit different categories. And I'd get rid of the regional distinction:
1.Two international languages (English AND French/Spanish/German/Russian/Arabic/Mandarin/..., depending on the region you live in and your needs)
2.A classical language, Latin is good but not the only choice (but I'd say the most important part would be actually learning about grammar and such stuff, about history and development of the culture)
3.A middle sized language of your region. In Europe, it would be anything from Hungarian to Italian.
4.A language of an important minority in your country or region.
5.A distant language, to broaden one's horizons.

But as we've agreed elsewhere that 6 might be a lot, I'd say a well educated person in my generation or younger (to not judge people, who have spent majority of their lives without the internet, beyond the iron curtain, etc) should speak at least 3 languages, native incluced. Two international ones, and one "less important" option.

I disagree with tungemål, English is not enough. It might be enough for a lot of people with lower education (even though a different language may be more advantageous for many). But people considering themselves well educated and waiving around university degrees should not settle for so little. And the society should not accept such settling.

I don't think a person with a university degree but just English is well educated, That's a part of the beauty of the word "university", it is supposed to broaden the horizons and see a much bigger part of the universum, the whole world. Especially the people in the humanities are failures in my opinion, if they settle only for English, at least unless their native language is an important international language too. Focusing just on English is extremely harmful for the society. Yes, English broadens one's horizons a lot, but not learning anything else creates a new sort of barriers.

It's not just about not knowing a different language and therefore not accessing lots of stuff. It is about the stupid idea that nothing else exists. It's about the stupid priviledged position, that either the rest of the world translates stuff, or their work is worthless and doesn't deserve any attention. How is it possible, that many supposedly educated people ask moronic questions like "are there any good books in Italian/Czech/Polish, or just translations?" How comes, that we are surprised by technological and scientific advances from some countries, if the information is readily available to anyone reading the language? Why do most of us know useless details from the american history, and never happened to get a basic idea about the history of China, Japan, Russia, the african continent? No wonder we often don't understand our world.

A well educated person should take it as automatic that there is a world beyond English. You don't need to speak all the languages of the world. But speaking at least two foreign languages should be enforced in education, to sensibilise people to this basic fact.
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Re: Six most important languages

Postby Speakeasy » Wed Apr 22, 2020 8:05 pm

What does it mean, to be educated?
The History Channel, or at least the Canadian version of it, runs a lot of old documentaries which were produced in the late 1950’s by the National Film Board of Canada, the CBC, the BBC, and a few other public broadcasters of the period. One of these, which appears fairly often, is a series of interviews with the Dean of the University of Toronto, a number of faculty heads, and a selection of noticeably mature and articulate First Year students. The discussion centers on the questions “What does it mean, to be educated?” and “What part should/can the modern university play in the education of today’s youth?” I am fairly confident that questions similar to these have been pondered by professors, by community leaders, by religious leaders, by students, by parents, and by the wider community since the very inception of child raising, of private tutoring, and of schools of higher learning.

In the documentary, the Dean of the University was hesitant to give a firm answer. Nevertheless, he did postulate that, given enough time, a reasonably intelligent person could earn an advanced degree in every one of the university’s faculties and would have acquired a great amount of “knowledge”; however, no one would ever really know whether or not the individual had actually been “educated” in the classical sense of the term. That is, there is no good definition of "what it means to be educated" and there is no test for it. Most of the faculty heads were similarly non-committal. What I found so very refreshing was that the students themselves were quite unsure as to their own answers to: “What does it mean, to be educated?” And then, I thought back to my own sense of puzzlement when we debated this question during my First Year. How many of us have "pat answers" to this question?

Languages of the Educated
As this forum appeals to the interests of “language fetishists”, it is quite understandable that many members should want to learn a broad selection of languages. Nevertheless, as to Professor Arguelles’ views on how many languages an “educated” person should strive to learn, I believe that there are practical limitations as to what one can reasonably accomplish. Let’s be honest amongst ourselves, we’re all paying a very high price for this obsessive activity of ours. The time spent “educating” ourselves in other peoples’ languages and cultures has an opportunity cost. Self-education is facultative. You can’t have it all, you can’t do it all, and you can’t take it with you. In my view, Professor Arguelles set the bar far too high for the average “educated” person. In any event, is the ability to speak a large number of languages a sign of one's having been "educated"? Poser la question, c'est y répondre. ;)

EDITED:
Poser la question, c'est y répondre = To ask the question is to answer it.

EDITED:
Numerous typos.
Last edited by Speakeasy on Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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