Evading the Foreigner Speak Trap when Learning a Language - Stuart Jay Raj

[ryanheise]

Quote: "When learning a language, try and elicit the native response. Don't listen to what they tell you, listen to what native speakers say to each other, and you'll come out with a much more authentic version of that language."

Stuart was one of my early inspirations after I had finished Korean language school and started becoming a self learner. He's someone who very much learns based on feeling and making an emotional connection with the language and culture, and I was also interested in how he has connected language learning with music, programming and humour.

His tips for learning "authentic" language from natives were quite interesting. I can't remember now where I heard him say this, but one thing he used to do to come across as more native-sounding and to help elicit more natural-sounding expressions from native speakers was to say something (S1) to a person (P1), and then try to remember their response (S2). Then learn S2 and use it on a second native person P2, and take note of their response to that: S3. And if he wanted to know what a genuinely natural response to S3 would be, he would try using the expression S3 on P1 or perhaps a different native person again, and learn it that way, rather than to simply ask "How would you say this?".

[mentecuerpo]

Quote: "When learning a language, try and elicit the native response. Don't listen to what they tell you, listen to what native speakers say to each other, and you'll come out with a much more authentic version of that language."

Stuart was one of my early inspirations after I had finished Korean language school and started becoming a self learner. He's someone who very much learns based on feeling and making an emotional connection with the language and culture, and I was also interested in how he has connected language learning with music, programming and humour.

His tips for learning "authentic" language from natives were quite interesting. I can't remember now where I heard him say this, but one thing he used to do to come across as more native-sounding and to help elicit more natural-sounding expressions from native speakers was to say something (S1) to a person (P1), and then try to remember their response (S2). Then learn S2 and use it on a second native person P2, and take note of their response to that: S3. And if he wanted to know what a genuinely natural response to S3 would be, he would try using the expression S3 on P1 or perhaps a different native person again, and learn it that way, rather than to simply ask "How would you say this?".

This video here and what your wrote reminds me about the foreigner talk.

A few years ago, I was in Houston, Texas, and went to visit an Italian friend; his name is Andrea. He is a professional chef and had prepared some fantastic food. Andrea had an invited an Italian family who resided in Huston, doing some postgraduate training in a local university, they were all from Rome.

The interesting thing is that when Andrea and I spoke to each other, I had no problems understanding his Italian or his Itañolo (when he spoke Spanish); however, I had a hard time understanding the conversation between the native Italians from Rome. The interesting thing is that when Andrea's friends spoke to me in Italian, I could understand everything they say. The problem was when the natives spoke between them; it was tough for me to comprehend.

How do you explain that?

I think they were speaking at natural speech between them and using some Roman dialect words, probably. When they address me, they knew I was the Italian learning person, so they spoke in precise standard Italian, and a probably decreased speech rate.
A soft version of foreinger talk.

[Cavesa]

Thanks for an interesting thread and video link!

I only have experience with european languages so far, but I've encountered this partially too. What you sound like, what you are with, and what you look like, all that affects the way people talk to you. An extreme and rather binary reaction is either unnecessarily switching to English or not. But of course there are smaller nuances to this (and what do the natives expect to be hard or easy for you is hilariously confused sometimes). And I am not surprised in the slightest that the non european languages pose a particular challenge in this area.

Quote: "When learning a language, try and elicit the native response. Don't listen to what they tell you, listen to what native speakers say to each other, and you'll come out with a much more authentic version of that language."

Tv series are a wonderful cure for that. You get tons of exposure, and the actors don't know a foreigner is watching. Yes, you could say that normal people don't speak like people in (some) tv series. That's why you need a larger sample and to use your brain (like "hmm, in the real life, people are probably not as overly dramatic as in this soap opera"). But those tons of exposure really help. The most authentic resources tend to be the hardest ones. I am extremely grateful to Kaamelott, there is nothing better for learning real life French.

Observing the normal natives in situ, that is wonderful, sure. But 1.time consuming 2.you can't just write stuff down without the whole situation being weird 3.not available for most learners.

A good supplemental activity are language resources for the natives. The guy in this video is right that a grammar for non native speakers sounds weird (it is not that weird, we all know it probably means "explained differently than to the natives, chopped down in smaller pieces, and not expecting too much previous knowledge"). Sometimes, the resources for non natives introduce not too exact stuff. And the differences vary even between bilingual sources for natives of various languages. It was extremely valuable for me to get a small Italian grammar for natives. Sure, no exercises. But a good supplement to the grammar for foreigners, touching on topics not covered, attacking the problems differently, and 100% authentic.

The interesting thing is that when Andrea and I spoke to each other, I had no problems understanding his Italian or his Itañolo (when he spoke Spanish); however, I had a hard time understanding the conversation between the native Italians from Rome. The interesting thing is that when Andrea's friends spoke to me in Italian, I could understand everything they say. The problem was when the natives spoke between them; it was tough for me to comprehend.

How do you explain that?

I think they were speaking at natural speech between them and using some Roman dialect words, probably. When they address me, they knew I was the Italian learning person, so they spoke in precise standard Italian, and a probably decreased speech rate.
A soft version of foreinger talk.

Yes, I think you've assessed the situation correctly.

I would just assume, that a lighter version of the "foreigner talk" would apply even if you were not a non native, but a native from a distant region. Whenever I saw a group of Italians from various regions, the differences were quite noticeable, and I was under the impression they needed to tone down some of their regional speaking habits. After all, the native Italian tv series are different from the dubbings (which are standard) too. We might consider it a form of "foreigner talk" that the tv uses to cater to every Italian native regardless their region of origin. A similar example would be the LA dubbings. The Latin American Spanish is a sort of not exactly mexican, a sort of a compromise between the major south american kinds of Spanish.
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I'd also like to add a note about one's appearance being important. You can lower the level of "foreigner talk" by proving you're good enough (which can be tiring sometimes), by being in situations not typical of foreigners, by some habits (another forum member recommended carrying a book in the language visibly with you. yes, it is an option). But what do we look like, that still plays a huge role, and you can't do much about that. I've seen some fascinating (and a bit sad) videos about people struggling to practice because of their race. That can happen very easily. A few friends really struggled in Japan (and the worst is being a white women. both racism and sexism applies. But know knows, perhaps being a black woman would have been even worse). Within Europe, it happens too. I had no problem in Spain, I was taken for a normal person despite my intermediate skills (I look non specifically european, with brown hair and eyes). A tall blond friend of mine struggled, despite initially being at a similar level. The local brains simply processed nordic looks=can't understand us.

So, I'd recommend everybody to profit from resources by natives for natives as much as possible before going to the country. Because that's the surest way to get good enough to outweigh your looks or any other "this is a native, I must not speak normaly" triggers. That's the way to be treated (and talked to) like a native and equal.

[tungemål]

When I talk to foreigners in my native tongue, I normally speak differently. But that is not necessarily a bad thing. I try to talk more clearly, and cut down on the dialect words. Normally during the day I talk lazily and sloppily, not clearly and maybe too fast. I haven't got too much experience talking with foreigners learning my language, but I think it is good for me when I do it. It makes me think about how I speak and maybe makes me a better speaker.

[Cavesa]

When I talk to foreigners in my native tongue, I normally speak differently. But that is not necessarily a bad thing. I try to talk more clearly, and cut down on the dialect words. Normally during the day I talk lazily and sloppily, not clearly and maybe too fast. I haven't got too much experience talking with foreigners learning my language, but I think it is good for me when I do it. It makes me think about how I speak and maybe makes me a better speaker.

That's an interesting thought. How do I speak to foreigners talking Czech: I know an unusual amount of them. Those, who were my classmates, had a good level. So, I spoke absolutely normally. To the rest, not much, as they spoke extremely badly usually, so I had to adapt.

This is definitely not a bad thing for a not too advanced learner. It offers some acclimatisation, getting used to the language. But it is horrible for the more ambitious and advanced ones. The lazy and sloppy natives are what we pay for, when we go to the country

I'd be curious about a particular situation: those of you, who do language exchange. Do you talk to your LE partners normally, in a way adapted to their level, or you automatically change to a sort of foreigner speak?

[sporedandroid]

I'd also like to add a note about one's appearance being important. You can lower the level of "foreigner talk" by proving you're good enough (which can be tiring sometimes), by being in situations not typical of foreigners, by some habits (another forum member recommended carrying a book in the language visibly with you. yes, it is an option). But what do we look like, that still plays a huge role, and you can't do much about that. I've seen some fascinating (and a bit sad) videos about people struggling to practice because of their race. That can happen very easily. A few friends really struggled in Japan (and the worst is being a white women. both racism and sexism applies. But know knows, perhaps being a black woman would have been even worse). Within Europe, it happens too. I had no problem in Spain, I was taken for a normal person despite my intermediate skills (I look non specifically european, with brown hair and eyes). A tall blond friend of mine struggled, despite initially being at a similar level. The local brains simply processed nordic looks=can't understand us.

So, I'd recommend everybody to profit from resources by natives for natives as much as possible before going to the country. Because that's the surest way to get good enough to outweigh your looks or any other "this is a native, I must not speak normaly" triggers. That's the way to be treated (and talked to) like a native and equal.

Something interesting happened to me with Icelandic. I was studying some Icelandic when I was a teen. I was pretty obsessed, but I never got to a high level. I didn’t even speak it. When I traveled to Iceland people ended up speaking Icelandic to me. I’m short and Hispanic. I have pretty light skin and brown hair and eyes. I’d say my features are ambiguous and sort of exotic to some people. I’d usually get Icelandic if I was kind of alone. At least on my first trip. On my most recent trip I didn’t make as much as an effort to blend in. In Reykjavík I always got English, but at the airport I still got Icelandic once in a while. I asked my friend if people ever spoke Icelandic to him and he said no. He’s a white guy with blue eyes. He doesn’t exactly look Scandinavian, but probably more Scandinavian than me. I wonder if it has to do with observing body language a lot and subconsciously copying it. It seems this comes naturally to me if I’m interested enough in a culture.

[ryanheise]

I'd be curious about a particular situation: those of you, who do language exchange. Do you talk to your LE partners normally, in a way adapted to their level, or you automatically change to a sort of foreigner speak?

One of my Korean language exchange partners told me that native English speakers were generally very difficult to understand, although it was easier to understand me when I talked. After that, I realised that I was subconsciously using foreigner talk, and became quite aware of it after that point. I would not only speak more slowly and use less connected speech, but I would also simplify my grammar, sometimes to the point where it was not even natural. Weirder yet, after one time of doing particularly a lot of language exchange, I found myself sometimes using the same unnatural grammar when speaking to my native English speaker friends!

More recently, I had a Japanese language exchange partner who explicitly requested that I speak faster, which was a refreshing request to have, although psychologically, I somehow found that very difficult to do. Even though I knew I was capable of speaking like a native, it just wouldn't come out that way when speaking to a language exchange partner that I knew might struggle to understand me at full speed.

[jeff_lindqvist]

In Reykjavík I always got English, but at the airport I still got Icelandic once in a while. I asked my friend if people ever spoke Icelandic to him and he said no. He’s a white guy with blue eyes. He doesn’t exactly look Scandinavian, but probably more Scandinavian than me. I wonder if it has to do with observing body language a lot and subconsciously copying it. It seems this comes naturally to me if I’m interested enough in a culture.

This is interesting. It happens to me all the time, i.e. when I'm travelling - which isn't that often. Flight attendants, staff at hotels, museums; people in the street etc. talk to the people around me in English, but to me in Spanish, German, Finnish, Irish, Slovak (!). For someone who doesn't really feel at home in another country anywhere, this is somewhat encouraging. Unknown spy skills, perhaps.

[Flickserve]

When I talk to foreigners in my native tongue, I normally speak differently. But that is not necessarily a bad thing. I try to talk more clearly, and cut down on the dialect words. Normally during the day I talk lazily and sloppily, not clearly and maybe too fast. I haven't got too much experience talking with foreigners learning my language, but I think it is good for me when I do it. It makes me think about how I speak and maybe makes me a better speaker.

That's an interesting thought. How do I speak to foreigners talking Czech: I know an unusual amount of them. Those, who were my classmates, had a good level. So, I spoke absolutely normally. To the rest, not much, as they spoke extremely badly usually, so I had to adapt.

This is definitely not a bad thing for a not too advanced learner. It offers some acclimatisation, getting used to the language. But it is horrible for the more ambitious and advanced ones. The lazy and sloppy natives are what we pay for, when we go to the country

I'd be curious about a particular situation: those of you, who do language exchange. Do you talk to your LE partners normally, in a way adapted to their level, or you automatically change to a sort of foreigner speak?

When I go to London, I speak local.

When I am in Hong Kong (where I live), I speak slightly slower, more clearly and use a more restricted vocabulary depending on who I am speaking to.

Language exchange even more slowly as their own language skills are at a lower level.

I thought it was something everybody does.

[Iversen]

This is actually a quite interesting subject. Maybe I should first say that I wait a long time to engage in conversations in a new foreign language (apart from a few words in a shop or single words used as examples during discussions in other languages, which doesn't qualify as 'speaking' in my book). I don't want conversations where the other persons feel they have to dumb down to have me understand anything they said. OK, I still have an accent and large holes in my speaking abilities when I do start to say something, but it is not like I'm trying to get language lessons for free. But since I can't travel around all the time this means that there may be a VERY long waiting time before I actually get a chance to really learn to speak a language which I have studied.

To compensate for this delay I have a stage during my travels where I walk around and try to absorb speech in the new language, and I may even try to do silent simultaneous translation if I do have to speak with somebody in a 'tourist language' like English. The quality of this inner speech is bound to be be abominable, but it is a good precursor to actually speaking out aloud. And normally I can suck up enough of the local language within a couple of days in full immersion to help me cross that treshold, but ONLY when I already know a lot a words and expressions and some basic grammar from my home studies.

As a result of these strategies (which are based on personality rather than conscious decisions) I generally don't have any trouble keeping people from speaking in English to me. And if they do I just continue speaking their language until they get the message - the number of cases where stubborn (and stupid) language 'bandits' have continued to speak to me in English in such situations can be counted on one hand. And the duration of such episodes will be short - very short!

As Jeff I have actually many cases where people start out speaking to me in a local language before I have squeeked a single peep (also in Iceland), but it happens just as often that they start out in English or offer me English brochures or things like that, probably because I do look like a tourist, but once I have started to speak the local language they mostly just follow suit. Some even laugh - like once in the cathedral of Girona where I asked for a Catalan language guide "si us plau". And they giggled when they heard that from a foreigner, but didn't hesitate to hand me the desired local version.