Can a non-native speaker speak better than a native speaker?

[dampingwire]

I'm not sure why you've gone down this path... was it "aks" vs "ask"? That's not about misspellings, it's about different pronunciations of the word.

That diversion is (unintentionally) my fault.

What I was trying to say is that I don't usually have much difficulty understanding people (in English) with different accents, pronunciations, and so on. What I would find mildly disconcerting would be an inconsistent use of language. So "aks" (AVE) is fine and "ask" ('standard') is fine, but "aks" and "ask" intermingled (from the same speaker) would probably have me concentrating on the way they speak more than the message itself. Switching between broad Geordie and 1930s BBC RP would have the same effect.

[mentecuerpo]

I assume you understand the concept of "fast thinking" vs "slow thinking", but here's a brief summary of the idea for readers who aren't:
Fast thinking is "second nature" -- decisions we can make unconsciously because we've practised the skill to such an extent. Fast thinking is related to (but not necessarily the same as) the idea of "procedural memory".
Slow thinking is actively analysing data to consciously reach a decision. Slow thinking is related to (but not necessarily the same as) the idea of "declarative memory" -- conscious memory of facts and ideas.

There is an interesting book on the topic: Thinking, Fast and Slow, by Daniel Kahnema, the book was on the New York Times best sellers list for months.

[liana_g]

Interesting discussion.

It's kind of odd for me - I hadn't realized that my ear was so used to listening to non-native and non-standard varieties of English that I can no longer discern a non-native accent unless it is very powerful and their grasp of the actual language is poor. Honestly, Henry Kissinger and the Aussie bloke both sound perfectly comprehensible to me. I know plenty of older locals in my area who have much less comprehensible English than Kissinger, and most of them speak no other languages. It's difficult for me to discern a non-native English speaker of German descent from a native-English-speaking American who comes from an area of the country where the pronunciation has been heavily influenced by Germanic languages (many areas of the mid-west are like this). Likewise, a person from India who speaks English as their first language may have a much stronger accent (at least from my perspective) than a person who has a strong grasp of American English but speaks, say, Spanish as their first language.

I honestly think that having an accent is a non-issue, so long as it doesn't impede comprehension, especially in English where the regional variations are so vast. I've sometimes had more trouble communicating with other native speakers than I have had with ESL learners - and that's with people from different regions of my own country, not internationally. Non-native speakers tend to make an effort to speak clearly, and usually have learned a common standardized dialect. At least in the U.S., a foreign accent is often considered charming and attractive in someone who speaks otherwise fluent English.

I think it's entirely possible for a non-native speaker to reach a level of fluency that is comparable to their native tongue, but it's a matter of diminishing returns. For myself, unless I intend to move to a new country, marry a speaker of that language, earn a degree in that language, have a family and a career in that language, and essentially abandon my own country and language entirely... there's just no reason to invest the years that it would take to achieve the level of fluency that I have in my own L1. It's the 20/80 principle - 20% of the work gives you 80% of the return. I'd rather speak 5 languages at 80% than two at 100%.

[Voytek]

I'm sure I speak English better than 6 y.o. native English speakers.

[nooj]

At least in the U.S., a foreign accent is often considered charming and attractive in someone who speaks otherwise fluent English.

I wish this were true but it really depends on where the person comes from. Thanks to hundreds of movies and TV shows, the Arabic accent is often associated with terrorism, an Indian accent is played for laughs, a Chinese accent as well.

I can't think of any media where any of these accents is valued as charming and attractive.

[Kraut]

https://www.statista.com/chart/20700/sh ... versation/

A quarter of Brits get annoyed by a foreign conversation

YouGov has released a somewhat disturbing poll highlighting levels of xenophobia and intolerance in post-Brexit Britain. The survey involved 1,461 adults and it found that more than a quarter of them would be very or fairly bothered by hearing people from a non-English speaking country talking to each other in their own language.

Among those who voted to remain in the EU, 14 percent would be bothered in some fashion by conversation in a foreign language while 83 percent couldn't care less. Intolerance is high among leave voters, however, with 55 percent of those polled stating that a foreign conversation would get on their nerves while 41 percent would not be bothered by it.

[mentecuerpo]

I'm sure I speak English better than 6 y.o. native English speakers.

You probably have a significantly more English vocabulary than a 6-yo. It is safe to assume that you probably know more low-frequency English words than a first-grader. I think I do too.

But, the prosody of the English language and the English accent will be another thing. I don't think we are a match to a 6-yo native in that department.

An interesting point here, what is the average vocabulary of a 6-yo English native speaker?

I am sure this has already been stablish by educators researching the field.

[Adrianslont]

I'm sure I speak English better than 6 y.o. native English speakers.

You probably have a significantly more English vocabulary than a 6-yo. ...

But, the prosody of the English language and the English accent will be another thing. I don't think we are a match to a 6-yo native in that department.

...

The thing is, I wouldn’t want to sound like a six year old kid!

I will use the word “weird” to describe the way kids speak but I mean it in a non-judgmental way. I just don’t have the technical knowledge to describe the prosody of kids. It is all a natural part of development, of course.

It seems to me that kid just don’t have the same prosody as adults - they seem mechanical and breathy and I don’t know what. Even a really articulate kid sounds like ... a kid. I was once one and I have two of my own. We all go through that stage BUT I would rather sound like a foreign adult than a native kid.

[lavengro]

...( * I do not consider "me and you did" to be incorrect....)

I no longer engage in discussions as to whether something is correct or incorrect; it just leads to heartache on my part. But correct, incorrect or otherwise, the phrase "me and you did" and similar annoys I so much that, to quote the singer Bruce Cockburn: "If I had a rocket launcher, I would not hesitate" or in my darker moments, "If I had a rocket launcher, some son of a [something] would die".

...( ...The grammar of most English speakers appears to only use the subject pronoun where it represents the entire subject. ...)

That's why I need a lot of rocket launchers....