What do you believe is the highest level an individual can achieve with the course only method?

General discussion about learning languages

what language level do you believe is the highest achievable with a course only method?

A2- or lower
1
3%
A2+
3
8%
B1-
5
14%
B1+
4
11%
B2-
9
25%
B2+
14
39%
 
Total votes: 36

Kevin
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What do you believe is the highest level an individual can achieve with the course only method?

Postby Kevin » Sun Sep 29, 2019 2:50 am

I was watching professor Arguelles youtube series, and he believes that it is possible to get to a B2 by using a variety of programs. He suggested using 5 different courses, and upon completion of various courses can get learners into the B1+ and even B2 level. Many people on this forum, however, do not believe it is possible to get to B2 without using massive amounts of native materials. Some people have even suggested that even without a course heavy method most people can't get to B2 even with native input and practice. Arguelles is a highly successful language learner and quite wise but I have seen many top language learners on here advise against using too many courses and many believe that using courses won't take a learner very far. So it was surprising to hear that Arguelles believes that using a course only method can get a learner to the B1-B2 level, given that many people on this forum believe otherwise.

What do you think is the farthest a person could get to using even the most comprehensive and "advanced" courses in combination such as FSI, 2nd stage assimil/linguaphone/living language courses, advanced grammars books, and other various courses?
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Re: What do you believe is the highest level an individual can achieve with the course only method?

Postby aokoye » Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:11 am

How are you defining "native materials" and "native input"?
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Re: What do you believe is the highest level an individual can achieve with the course only method?

Postby Axon » Sun Sep 29, 2019 5:35 am

Low B2, even for less commonly studied languages like Vietnamese, Indonesian, Arabic, etc. For big European languages like English, French, Spanish, and German, there's simply so much out there that someone working through textbook after textbook could probably pass C1 at least. Especially for someone particularly diligent about grammar.

HSK claims it's equal to C2 but I strongly doubt it. China's HSK prep books are insanely good though, including dictionaries with example sentences and collocations for every single word used in the test materials. As there's no speaking component, I think out of all the major top-level language exams, HSK6 would be the easiest to pass with only courses. The JLPT might be the same, but having never studied Japanese I have no idea about what kind of test prep books there are.
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Re: What do you believe is the highest level an individual can achieve with the course only method?

Postby Cavesa » Sun Sep 29, 2019 9:03 am

C1. The classes (which naturally include mostly coursebooks and teachers and tiny and filtered amounts of media, not huge amounts of media) lead up to C1, even though rarely. Only some schools organise the courses (many stop at B1 and already pretend B2 is something too hard and not practical, which is stupid), and then the people can take the exams.

There are two problems with this path, it is expensive, and the people still have some serious disadvantages, unless they cover for those gaps in their free time. It's a shame that their teachers forget to tell them to consume tons of media, because the difference is significant.

Self teaching is also possible this way. With mostly coursebooks, with or without a teacher, you can get as far as the coursebooks go. If there is no C1 coursebook for your target language, you will not get there, especially alone (C1 French coursebooks are a very recent thing, truth be told, the Spanish learners had them earlier. And good luck finding a C1 course for many smaller languages). Even if there is, your weaknesses will still be significant without tons of normal media, but you could get to the overall level, pass the exam, and get the job of your dreams while improving in the country.

The suggested B1-B2 result with mainly coursebooks is a very realistic plan, which could work faster than trying to avoid the "boring" coursebooks with media. I am convinced the media start being the most useful after this point, not before it. I'd say coursebooks get all sorts of prejudice on the internet, and I'd say most people hating them and underestimating them are actually not some experienced learners succeeding otherwise (I totally respect and find lots of inspiration in posts by people succeeding without them, but they are simply rare), they are usually people who have seen one or two coursebooks and judge the whole market by this experience, and they often confuse the "the book doesn't work" and "the book lying around, while I lazily avoid it, doesn't work"
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Re: What do you believe is the highest level an individual can achieve with the course only method?

Postby Arnaud » Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:09 am

I would say it depends of the language: if you expect to find courses/textbooks to reach C1 in russian, you're dreaming (I say russian, because it's a case that I know). I voted B2-, that's just based on my own experience...
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Re: What do you believe is the highest level an individual can achieve with the course only method?

Postby Cèid Donn » Sun Sep 29, 2019 10:37 am

I am inclined to agree with Cavesa here. I think C1 is very possible, especially in a university setting. It's just not a common path for self-learners.

One big caveat is whether there's course material for your TL that goes to that level. It is not common for such material to ever get created and published in the first place because it costs a lot of money and the potential audience for course materials decreases dramatically from beginner to very advanced since most learners never stick it out that long. So the reality is, most people who have studied a language to a C1-C2 will likely have stopped using materials designed for learners by B1 or B2 and switched over to native material simply due to that being their only choice. So a lot of opinions on this are likely influenced by that reality, whether or not it's acknowledged.

I've used C1 learner materials for French, in particular coursebooks designed for advanced grammar and writing skills (I'm not sure what Cavesa means by these materials being recent--the particular Presses Universitaire Grenobloise [PUG] materials I use have been around for decades, old enough for some of their older editions to have some passé content regarding writing style). But the big leap here is that they are all in French. The same usually goes with similar materials for Spanish, German and other languages commonly studied at very advanced levels in academic settings--this level of coursebook or grammar book will often be in the medium of the TL itself. So depending on how you define "native materials" these may or may not qualify, because in some cases, they can be used by either L1 or L2 speakers, and may have been designed to be so. In other words, at this level, the line between learner (L2) and native (L1) materials can get blurry.

There other thing is that once you get the B1 or B2, depending on an individual's personality, goals and other circumstances, a learner can become very bored or frustrated with coursework, preferring to continue developing their skills in their TL in other ways. Many, myself included, get impatient at a certain point with using materials specifically designed for learners because such materials tend to be narrow in scope and may not be sufficient for whatever aspects of the language the learner feels they should be working on the most. One very common complaint you'll hear from advanced learners is "These materials/classes/methods teach you to talk about X, Y and Z but I really want to be able to talk about A, B and C." Once you get beyond learning the basic grammar and vocabulary, it because increasingly harder to find learner material that suits your own personal goals for your TL because learner materials are rarely designed for such personalization and specificity. At that point, you really have no option other than native materials.
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Note from an educator and former ESL/test skills tutor: Any learner, including self-learners, can use the CEFR for self-assessment. The CEFR is for helping learners progress and not for gatekeeping and bullying.

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Re: What do you believe is the highest level an individual can achieve with the course only method?

Postby Cainntear » Sun Sep 29, 2019 11:18 am

My favourite rhetorical question in English: how long is a piece of string?

It is definitely possible to write a course that includes a lot of interaction with native speakers and traditionally university courses require the reading of long-form fiction as well as more recently watching movies and TV. So in theory, such a course could bring you to C2.

And if you move to the country to study the language in university in parallel with subject studies, the C2 content (the subject courses written for native speakers) is still part of your course on one hand, but not strictly a language course on the other.

Also , you've got the blurred line of university life which is an inevitable consequence of being on the course. Is that part of the course?

..and then how do we define the levels? There is no definitive objective definition, and everyone's welcome to make their own estimate.
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Re: What do you believe is the highest level an individual can achieve with the course only method?

Postby leosmith » Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:40 am

Kevin wrote:Many people on this forum, however, do not believe it is possible to get to B2 without using massive amounts of native materials.

What do you think is the farthest a person could get to using even the most comprehensive and "advanced" courses in combination such as FSI, 2nd stage assimil/linguaphone/living language courses, advanced grammars books, and other various courses?

Imo, if you took enough of these courses in combination you could theoretically also have massive amounts of native material, which makes the question moot.
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Re: What do you believe is the highest level an individual can achieve with the course only method?

Postby Iversen » Mon Sep 30, 2019 10:48 am

Way back in the mid sixties I studied Italian and Spanish at home with no access to the internet, no native speakers and hardly ever a word in those languages on TV (only one channel, and it spoke Danish with a smattering of English added to the soup). For both languages I used textbooks written mr and mrs Kirchheiner, and this must be as close to the only-courseware situation as you can get. I don't even remember whether I used dictionaries, but if I had owned one I would still have it - and I haven't got anything that old. So presumably I just borrowed the textbooks and dictionaries from the library - at first on my mothers card since you had to be 13 years old to borrow from the ordinary public library, and it is unlikely that the children's library had foreign dictionaries. But later I got my own card.

So what level had I attained? Well, I didn't use my Spanish for travelling until after the death of Franco, but I did use my limited Italian skills in 1972 on my first interrail trip. I arrived in Milano in the early morning, and not to Stazione Centrale as planned, but to something called Stazione Garibaldi. And then I ended up in a monumental churchyard where I had to ask my way to get downtown to the cathedral area. And it went quite well - although the first man I asked checked that I had understood his instructions (go to the 'buoi' - yes, that means 'oxen'). I could also order a granita di mente and buy food and do other menial tasks, so according to the communicative criteria I must have had at least a level of A2, maybe B1. And after a couple of days down there I had also picked up roughly how Italian should sound, but not to the extent that I could distinguish the different dialects they spoke in Milano, Firenze, Roma and Venezia or discuss complicated themes. That level of expertise only came several years later.

Could I have passed B2 and reach C1? Well, then I would at least have needed to get some vocabulary from other sources since a standard textbook isn't likely to give you more than maybe a thousand words or so. Nowadays there should be audio with textbooks so the pronunciation problem can been solved without leaving the realm of textbooks - but you don't learn to babble freely. As for grammar the old textbooks were more systematic and comprehensive than the junk you get nowadays so if you can learn grammar just from reading about it the situation has actually deteriorated - but still, you can communicate with a limited and defective grammar - it will just drive your native conversation partners nuts. But C1 or even C2? Ahem, no - unless you have the computational powers of a Hale or Mezzofanti.

But who in their sane mind would limit themselves to using courseware nowadays where the internet gives you access to literally TONS of native foreign speech and writings plus translation programs and skype and god knows what more?

Entrance to the Cimeterio Monumentale.jpg
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Re: What do you believe is the highest level an individual can achieve with the course only method?

Postby iguanamon » Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:08 pm

Kevin wrote:I was watching professor Arguelles youtube series, and he believes that it is possible to get to a B2 by using a variety of programs. He suggested using 5 different courses, and upon completion of various courses can get learners into the B1+ and even B2 level. Many people on this forum, however, do not believe it is possible to get to B2 without using massive amounts of native materials. Some people have even suggested that even without a course heavy method most people can't get to B2 even with native input and practice. Arguelles is a highly successful language learner and quite wise but I have seen many top language learners on here advise against using too many courses and many believe that using courses won't take a learner very far. So it was surprising to hear that Arguelles believes that using a course only method can get a learner to the B1-B2 level, given that many people on this forum believe otherwise.

I've had a reputation here as being anti-course over the years. I am not anti-course. I use them and appreciate them for what they do for me. They can provide a solid foundation in learning and I have used them to good effect. The DLI Basic Courses are quite thorough and could definitely lead a learner into B2. I can only vouch for the two I have done: DLI Portuguese Basic and DLI Haitian Creole Basic. Both these courses had drills, dialogs, readings, more drills, comprehension questions and grammar explanations/drills. They are the most thorough courses I have ever done.

Still, as good and thorough as these courses are, there are gaps they just cannot fill. They are designed to build a foundation for a learner. Once the foundation is built, the rest of the language is acquired by the learner in the real world. No course, in and of itself, can encompass a whole language. Indeed, most of the languages I have self-learned do not have advanced courses. Sure, big and more commonly learned languages like FIGS, Mandarin, Japanese will have these courses but most other languages do not have them.

In my years on the forum, I have seen learners go overboard with courses. I think such a dependency leads them to have difficulty learning outside of courses because they tend to struggle with a lack of direction and instruction. The course heavy learners tend to take more time to reach a high level. They also tend to struggle more with comprehension outside of course-world in listening to and reading native materials with more informal speech, simply because exposure to this material has not been a priority. Course audio, especially A1-B2 courses, is typically not sufficient to train listening to native speech.

I would be bored to tears if I were limited to courses only in learning. I enjoy making my own connections and exploring my own interests. I like how the synergy works between comprehensible native material and my courses. My Haitian course only peripherally exposed me to Vodou and taught me nothing about what grinding poverty means in Haitian lives and nothing about the sad and horrific practice of the "restavek"- child slavery. My Ladino courses only briefly introduced Rashi text and Solitreo (cursive Rashi script). I had to teach them to myself through use. This is why I learn languages so I can delve into their cultures and learn from their speakers.

In my opinion there is a false dichotomy between learning from courses and native material in a learning context. It doesn't have to be "either/or". Yes, they are different, but native materials can (and should) be used more than just passively while learning a language. Reading a book in TL and/or listening to audio/tv can be a learning experience every bit as intensive as a course if the right questions are asked by the learner, e.g.: exploration of vocabulary, grammar, cultural points, idioms, comprehension, transcription, writing and discussing the book or media with native-speakers. The difference is that the learner has to provide their own structure and some learners either can't or don't want to make that leap. It doesn't even have to be a formal structure, as long as the learner is conscious of the process and pays attention. I've seen some beginners here delve full bore into native materials- L2 audio tv with L1 subs on netflix while simultaneously going through a course and I don't believe this is as effective in learning as starting slow and working one's way up by building the necessary foundation.

Yes, a course is easier than self-direction. Many people need the support, structure and direction of a course. A good and thorough course (or combination of courses) can take a learner a long way, for most commonly studied languages, probably to B2 if a learner can deal with a course-heavy approach and squeeze every morsel out of it, but it's not for me.

What is the purpose of self language-learning? For some people it is not about the destination but the journey. Some enjoy both the journey and the destination. Some view the journey as a necessary evil to get to the destination. Most of us probably fall somewhere in the middle.

Myself, I learn a language to enrich my life. I love what I can do with them. I can put Haitians and St Lucians at ease by speaking their Creoles. I can travel, read original literature and delve deeply into TL cultures. I can relate to people on a one to one basis. Languages allow me to grow and to continue learning.

So, I fall in the middle of the spectrum of learners. I enjoy a good course but I want to get out of courses as soon as I reasonably can so that I can start using the language to learn more of the language and its culture(s). I enjoy the journey, it gives me a sense of accomplishment. I enjoy even more the never ending journey of learning that having a high level in a language gives me. That's my end game.

We self-learners run the gamut of people along the spectrum. Some are perfectionists. Some are matter of fact- "I need 25,000 words; 10,000 sentences; 10,000 srs reps". Some are pure zen. I've seen learners here, over the years, at both extremes of the spectrum. As I've said, most of us fall between the extremes. I say to each their own. If a learner wants to use only courses they should go for it. If a learner wants to use only native material they should do that too. Is either extreme the "best" way or the most efficient and effective way to self-learn a language? From what I have observed, I would have to say no. If anyone asks my advice as to this, that's what I will tell them. But self-language learning is all about the self. That's the beauty of self-learning and why we are here in the first place. Nobody died and left any of us, not me, not you, not Assimil, not even Professor A, the ultimate authority in self-learning a language.
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