Are you a happy B2?

[coldrainwater]

I'd have started language learning much earlier if I knew what a cool vocabulary playground it opens up. Even before I decided on a language to learn, I had to figure out what I would enjoy doing enough to keep it from a rusty decay. In the end, I figured I'd read and often. Awareness of the importance of listening didn't come into scope until later and it was one of those serendipitous moments that opened up more than just an L2.

All that is to say that I don't see myself as satisfied with B2 level receptive skills and it would be equally unfair if I didn't respond by splitting the discussion between reception and production. Right out of the gate, I already want to read great literature, no matter the tongue or how they go about shaping the symbols. I have already mentioned the word-nerd part, so I will only restate that this once. To boot, I also want to learn stuff, lots of it if possible. It is way more exciting for me to pick up new skills completely in an L2,3,4 than it is in my native language. I don't overanalyze the why. So far, I have only faced transparent language and for opaque languages, I'll have to get back with you when I try one of those. Even then I would want C-level reading and listening skills, but it might end up a case of 'wishes and pennies'.

On the other hand, my world flips around when I talk production. I live in Texas and am an intermediate Spanish speaker (for the sake of this thread, I will say B2, but that only goes for this thread). That is a great position to be in, and I have to say I am quite happy there. It is a perfect level for impromptu intercambios. I will openly interact with native speakers, heritage natives and anyone in between. Many are native level speakers with several thick coats of rust and atrophy. Almost all of us have gaps. I often find that our mutual skillset speaking purely in Spanish here is very complimentary. Where they may lack vocabulary and are not aware of many useful collocations, I can fill in the blanks. I counter-balance that strength exceptionally well with a mix of faulty grammar and pronunciation that is very much and eternally in need of improvement. It is still not even clear which of the two skills needs more work. It might depend on the day. Writing in IM's offers good practice for both parties since my writing skills are bit stronger and I find that natives here often get little to no writing practice, so the opportunity is welcome. Nearly everyone in business speaks English here, so an opportunity to speak purely Spanish during the business day is very well received by natives especially.

I feel most comfortable discussing what I have acquired to date, so when I can bring a third language into the discussion at the right level, I'll update.

[golyplot]

if you are interested only in media then I'd say that it is possible to reach a level when you can understand practically everything. Or at least everything you would understand, or would care to understand in your native language. I might be mistaken but I believe that my passive skills are about C1-C2, even though my writing is not so good (yet?).

At an advanced level, probably the biggest limitation there is learning all the obscure cultural references. There's some jokes you just won't get as a foreigner.

I think it would be like the norms for a % of tv in sign language (which is given by law in my country, for example). No, not every second or third sentence of everything is being translated, but some programs are completely translated, and some are not translated at all.

It is similar for language learners. A B2 learner is likely to understand some kinds of media almost perfectly, but mostly fail at some others.

This is so true! It's pretty common that I'll happily watch one show and understand almost everything, and then try another show in the same language and get completely lost.

[IronMike]

One can get a lot done with "only" a B2. I've spent entire evenings with a dozen Russian speakers where we discussed multiple topics from the current state of affairs between our countries as well as BS'd with each other as fellow military officers. B2 is definitely working knowledge but that's really enough for most topics one wants to talk about. Sure, you might still have to search for words, but the beauty of B2 is if you don't know the word, you can explain what you're trying to say ("You know, when a person is traveling through a small space under the ground? What's that called? That's it! Spelunking!") and your interlocutor understands and even gives you the word. I've had so many late-night conversations with Russian speakers along those lines. All at "only" a B2 level. C1 would be great, but I'll never poo-poo someone with "only" a B2.

[lichtrausch]

Yes, I truly don't know if I'd pass a B2 test or equivalent in all the language I've listed as such. What I've noticed though is that my conversation is quite good and seems to match what I've read B2 is supposed to be for those languages. Although I feel like I understand about 99% of what my conversation partners say, my listening to TV and such may not meet the B2 criteria, probably because it's not as important to me and I learn in a way that focuses on conversation.

I can only speak for myself, but to me you are one of the few members of the language learning community who serve as a kind of benchmark of what is possible. You have chosen many difficult languages and reached a considerable level in them. Would you consider taking a proficiency test for any of your Asian languages to help you more precisely self-assess your level in the rest of the languages that you rate "~B2" and "~B2+"? I think it would greatly help those of us with similar goals to manage expectations about what is possible in this pursuit.

[leosmith]

I can only speak for myself, but to me you are one of the few members of the language learning community who serve as a kind of benchmark of what is possible. You have chosen many difficult languages and reached a considerable level in them. Would you consider taking a proficiency test for any of your Asian languages to help you more precisely self-assess your level in the rest of the languages that you rate "~B2" and "~B2+"? I think it would greatly help those of us with similar goals to manage expectations about what is possible in this pursuit.

Thanks for the kind words. Yes, I would like to be assessed in all my languages. It's not my top priority right now though, but I promise to share it with you guys when I do. I posted this here before; not a great indication of level because I struggled changing languages, but better than reciting a prepared script imo. If you'll notice the parts when I speak smoothly, I feel I speak like that most of the time in real life when I'm not switching back and forth. I struggle sometimes, but not as much as in the video. I have good methods but I think I'm just an average learner otherwise, so what I've achieved is probably possible for most.

[jeff_lindqvist]

I have been following this thread with great interest. I'm not sure I've ever had B2 as a target goal - if I've ever had any level as a goal. Usually I just start a language which I find interesting enough, and time/patience/strategy/methods/etc will tell how far I get.

Now that I think of it, I think it's very common to aim higher (fluency, anyone?) - and sometimes lower (say, survival tourist level for the upcoming holiday). One may succeed with either goal, and we all know it's possible to fail... Hey, the skilled polyglot is probably more likely to reach the higher B levels (even lower C) than the untrained is likely to even reach (let alone maintain) A1.

All this being said, it's one thing to aim for B2 and then quit, and another to see the other side of the coin - to accept that B2 probably is a "good enough" level. The levels are still vague enough, and don't say a lot about vocabulary, grammar, accent... (I just came to think of the recent posts in StringerBell's log.)

Proficiency isn't the same thing as accuracy. As many in this thread have said before: you can do a lot with B2, even B1.

[Iversen]

I feel that the whole idea about aiming for a certain level is absurd - as if you stopped learning when you had attained that level. OK, I may for practical reasons have to settle for the equivalent of B1 or B2 in some of my languages, but is just a result of some of my strategy choices - not something I had planned beforehand. If I had developed for instance my French I might speak French better, but then I would have had to drop a dozen other languages, and I would have had to do more about locating conversation partners and things like that - maybe even spend some months down there in Macronistan or follow formal courses or read the collected works of Balzac. And then I would definitely be less happy that I am now.

But of course there are sometimes external constraints which you have to take into account, and if you can't avoid being judged then you would normally try to pass the test with flying colours. In other words: somebody is wiggling a piece of bait in front of your eyes, and you are lured into doing whatever it takes to catch it.

And of course I'm not exempt from that, but since I left the university in January 1981 I have not had to prove my language skills by taking any formel test, and consequently I have just aimed for the level at each skill where I could do certain things, like surviving monolingual journeys or writing things in my log here. Whether those things could be translated into an A1-C2 level or something in between has not really bothered me.

[Cavesa]

I don't think most people around here have B2 as the target level. I'd say most of us aim higher, but we just get stuck on B2, while trying to get there (or while taking a break, etc). It takes more time and work to get from B2 to C1, than from A2 to B1, that's one of the few things people really seem to agree on.

So, I'd say a most common case around here might be a person, who plans to get to C1 one day, but might be a B2 for months or years (my Spanish seems to be a not rare example). And some people will be beating themselves up over not being C1 yet, while others will be happy with their B2. Neither attitude is right or wrong, I suppose.

The B2 as a goal is not that uncommon among the English learners, FCE is very popular, or among the people in need of that level for moving abroad and working in the language (some regions in Germany require B2 as the entry level for doctors, the francophone parts of the Switzerland require B2, etc.)

I really like to read the various kinds of experience. They make a different picture of what B2 is in the real life, that what we are used to.

[El Forastero]

I don't think most people around here have B2 as the target level

I do. Perhaps people don't have B2 as the final goal or the north of their compass, but it can be a measureable intermediate goal worth puirsing. LEt me give this example according to my experience:

I'm from Colombia, a very big and very monolingual country without linguisitc borders. Years ago, the only reason to study english for most of the studends who did it was applying to a scholarship abroad, and most universities has a B2 level or so as a minimum admission criteria. More recently, a university student needs to have a certified B2 to be graduated. Concerning french, there are lots of people studying it because they want to move to Canada and they need to show at least B2 in the TEFQ and students wanting to study a master in France or looking for teacher assistant positions need also B2.

In all those cases, B2 was the first goal to do the next step in the process they are in, but it doesn't imply that's the end of the language learning journey. Once abroad, they keep learning and could reach C2 easily if they are required to write a PhD thesis in the target language or so.

So yes, as a teacher, I found several students with a B2 certification in mind as a short / mid term goal.

[Cavesa]

I don't think most people around here have B2 as the target level

I do. Perhaps people don't have B2 as the final goal or the north of their compass, but it can be a measureable intermediate goal worth puirsing. LEt me give this example according to my experience:

I'm from Colombia, a very big and very monolingual country without linguisitc borders. Years ago, the only reason to study english for most of the studends who did it was applying to a scholarship abroad, and most universities has a B2 level or so as a minimum admission criteria. More recently, a university student needs to have a certified B2 to be graduated. Concerning french, there are lots of people studying it because they want to move to Canada and they need to show at least B2 in the TEFQ and students wanting to study a master in France or looking for teacher assistant positions need also B2.

In all those cases, B2 was the first goal to do the next step in the process they are in, but it doesn't imply that's the end of the language learning journey. Once abroad, they keep learning and could reach C2 easily if they are required to write a PhD thesis in the target language or so.

So yes, as a teacher, I found several students with a B2 certification in mind as a short / mid term goal.

I meant "around here" as on this forum. This community. The situation of getting "stuck" at B2 while aiming for C1 in the long run is not rare here.

Of course that "around here" as in my country, B2 is a dream of many people, who are used to weak B1 as the highschool leaving level (our school system is broken in many ways and dumbing the final exam down didn't help at all). It is extremely sad, that weak (the test is easier than a real international exam) B1 is being presented as a desirable outcome of ten years of language classes, instead of being seen for what it really is: a failure of both the system and the student.

In the rest of my post, I added some real world example of B2 as a desirable level too. Immigration, job, university requirements, etc. That's why I was putting those examples in opposition to the "not a common goal around here". The learners like in this community tend to be more ambitions than the usual "teach me only enough to get a better salary" crowd.

However, I doubt that "once abroad, they keep learning and could reach C2 easily, if they are required to write a PhD thesis or so". I doubt it a lot. Most people writing scientific articles in English are really far from C2, especially in speaking. The people improve one specific skill, which is scientific writing, and that's it. Some fields will require a higher level than others though (philosophy vs. medicine). Other languages might be even worse, as English has been pushing them out of science. And most immigrants do not reach C2 that easily, many don't ever reach it at all.