Are you a happy B2?

[Querneus]

Now my attitude has relaxed a bit - I think because I now know what it really feels like to be at an advanced level (spoiler alert: still feels like I'm faking it).

I felt like that statement needed to be emphasized. I think there is a common misconception among those that have yet to reach an advanced level in a language that you will one day cross a magic threshold and feel equal to a native speaker and then you’ll speak confidently in all situations and everything will be wonderful. But if that threshold exists, I have certainly never reached it. If it does exist, it’s probably as much a matter of attitude as of skill. And if you have that attitude, you will probably also feel happy and confident even at B2.

I think I've reached such a threshold in English, but it took me several years, let's say about five or six years, where 90% of my life was in English, even after arriving in Canada with a B2 level of English already. It's not something I'm really willing to do again, unless I found myself moving to a part of the world where neither English or Spanish is the common language used.

So far I'm pretty happy with my B2-ish French by the way (my speech production is probably B1 but the rest is B2). I just came back from a week-long trip to Quebec two weeks ago where I used my French a lot, and I had no problems whatsoever. I didn't really aim to settle at this level, but it happened naturally as I don't use it much in my life.

[leosmith]

Hi guys, great topic and responses! I have to admit that originally (10+ years ago?) I had no idea about level and such. If I was speaking ‘comfortably’, then I was ‘fluent’, right? It actually took me a long time to realize there’s fluent and there’s fluent. Lol, I guess that’s the reason why I ditched the term. Although I was able to converse really well, I would often get lost watching a movie or trying to figure out what natives were saying to each other. And don’t get me started with Chinese characters – lots of signs and menus confused me. I finally had to admit to myself that I wasn’t advanced in anything but English and Spanish. I hate lying so when pressed I tell people that I’m intermediate. I have a really big ego so this hurt. So that’s the ‘unhappy’ side of it.

But there’s a lot of ‘happy’ too. I actually did most of my language learning while I was working 60hrs/week as an engineer. I’m talking about Krashen type learning – studying aggressively. Granted, the last 6 or 8 years before retirement I would take 6 months off every 1 or 2 years, so I got a lot of exposure, gleaned a lot and got more comfortable. But without that really intense studying in tandem with my real job I wouldn’t have accomplished much. So I feel great about what I accomplished there – it seems like I can talk to just about every one I run into.

Now to answer the OP, although I didn’t do it in the past due to my own ignorance about language learning and maintenance in general, now I definitely target B2. Or I should say that I target a level where I converse comfortably, I can understand at least half of the more difficult listening tasks like TV, movies, natives talking to each other, etc and perhaps most importantly, a level where I can ignore the language for a long time if I choose and be able to completely recover it in a short period of time. My best guess is that’s B2, but I’m no expert on level and I don’t want to minimize the accomplishment of getting an actual B2 certification.

All that being said, although I’m quite happy I’d be happier at C1 and even though most of my languages are quite difficult, I’m actually seeing indications that they might inch their way in that direction if I keep using them like I do. A few years back I thought there was just no way, but now I’m hopeful. I believe the limit on how many C level languages our brains have the capacity for is higher than the number of languages I want to learn (in the teens). Give me a couple of decades and ask me again

I’m sticking with targeting B2 though, initially at least. Not touching new languages until I hit C1 would drive me nuts.

[Xenops]

Not happy at all. B2 is when my interaction with the language and its culture is just starting to get interesting.

I'm actually really surprised how many people are happy at B2. Like lichtrausch and Leosmith, I'm under the impression that you still struggle with words even at B2, and you are limited. I say "impression", because the highest I have (yet) gotten in a language is a solid B1 in Spanish, and I remember trying to read Narnia books or a book by Carlos Ruìz Zafòn in Spanish, and how I didn't know 80% of the words. I can follow Pokemon episodes in dubbed Spanish, but nothing more than that.

As someone with a creative bent, I *ideally* want to learn an additional language to the highest level--I write stories/comics, and I appreciate my mastery of literary English. I want to have the same mastery in my second or third language. Depends on the language--Spanish, obviously not, because I haven't studied it seriously in 12 years--but to be able to post my comics in fluent English, Japanese, and who knows what else? That would be amazing!

Do I know how much work that would take? Absolutely not. Maybe it's better that I don't. But I would love to read about C1-C2 success stories. There's the guy that took the Italian test, there's sctroyenne with French, and with PM it's just a matter of time. Anyone else?

[Cavesa]

Not happy at all. B2 is when my interaction with the language and its culture is just starting to get interesting.

I'm actually really surprised how many people are happy at B2. Like lichtrausch and Leosmith, I'm under the impression that you still struggle with words even at B2, and you are limited. I say "impression", because the highest I have (yet) gotten in a language is a solid B1 in Spanish, and I remember trying to read Narnia books or a book by Carlos Ruìz Zafòn in Spanish, and how I didn't know 80% of the words. I can follow Pokemon episodes in dubbed Spanish, but nothing more than that.

As someone with a creative bent, I *ideally* want to learn an additional language to the highest level--I write stories/comics, and I appreciate my mastery of literary English. I want to have the same mastery in my second or third language. Depends on the language--Spanish, obviously not, because I haven't studied it seriously in 12 years--but to be able to post my comics in fluent English, Japanese, and who knows what else? That would be amazing!

Do I know how much work that would take? Absolutely not. Maybe it's better that I don't. But I would love to read about C1-C2 success stories. There's the guy that took the Italian test, there's sctroyenne with French, and with PM it's just a matter of time. Anyone else?

I think your impression is a bit imprecise. The described struggle with words are mostly just using "too basic" vocabulary to express as much nuance as you're used to in your native language. It is a good command of basic vocab (a few thousand words) and you can definitely do a lot of stuff with that. I could spend a month in Spanish during my exchange and I wasn't even B2, my skills were extremely useful, I just wasn't as free as I'd like to (which is partially because I talk a lot and I have always had rich vocabulary even in my native language).

I could follow Pokemon after a few weeks of learning German (so not even a full A1). At B2 in French (that's the language, where I have had the most precise info about my level), I could follow easier dubbed shows (like Grimm), without missing out on too many details, I was lost at hard things (=Kaamelott level). In real life, I could understand majority of what were people talkng about, again without some details (not that crucial), but most importantly without feeling totally comfortable.

B2 is a very good level for many uses. At B2, you already stand out among the language learners any normal native has had the opportunity to meet. You can already do lots of jobs in the language, you can be totally ok in lots of situations. You are just not as ready for everything randomly hitting your way, as on the later levels. At B2, you can deal with lots of stuff just fine, but you will probably not win an argument with a native (and it sucks).

I'd say a part of your dissatisfaction with B2 is exactly your creative nature. You have a very high standard and expectations. Most people want to to do well in everyday situations and/or their job. That's all. Many people express their creativity in totally unrelated ways (or not at all), so the pressure to get to the high levels is not that strong for them. And there is really a different sort of standards for the non English native speakers, who are faced with foreigners at the C levels much more often than anybody else.

There have been more C1-C2 success stories around here. Mine is one of many. Tavros, Serpent, and others have been writing about their path to the C1 or C2 as well.

[Dragon27]

My bolding, and to be fair to leosmith he did say his “best guess is that’s a B2,” and to be even more fair, some other responders have also given me the impression that B2 is very far from comfortable in this regard. So, if B2 is only understanding half of tv and movies, it is certainly an expectations adjustment for me as a learner. I was hoping one would be closer to 80-90%+ comprehension , not >50%. This thread is illuminating. I’m glad it was made and grateful to everyone who has contributed.

Everyone has their own B2 in mind. That's why I never cared about these kind of self-assesment references. You should just state what you want to be able to do an go with it. But to be fair, here's a quote from the link rdearman provided at the first page:

I can understand TV documentaries, live interviews, talk shows, plays and the majority of films in standard dialect.

That's one of the points from the Listening section of B2. And here's for C1

I can without too much effort understand films which contain a considerable degree of slang and idiomatic usage.

Also:

If you have over 80% of the points ticked, you have probably reached Level X

[brilliantyears]

Now my attitude has relaxed a bit - I think because I now know what it really feels like to be at an advanced level (spoiler alert: still feels like I'm faking it).

I felt like that statement needed to be emphasized. I think there is a common misconception among those that have yet to reach an advanced level in a language that you will one day cross a magic threshold and feel equal to a native speaker and then you’ll speak confidently in all situations and everything will be wonderful. But if that threshold exists, I have certainly never reached it. If it does exist, it’s probably as much a matter of attitude as of skill. And if you have that attitude, you will probably also feel happy and confident even at B2.

There was definitely a magic threshold for me (with English). I sincerely wish I could replicate the process (whatever the hell that was) for all my other languages, but I haven't figured it out yet Probably the combination of a teenager's brain and the absolute (apparent) necessity of learning English (to be able to enjoy my very specific hobbies).

[garyb]

Not really! I've been in the massive gulf between B2 and C1 for a good few years now and I identified the most with zemonkey's mixed feelings. Every time I speak or write, or miss bits of a conversation because of background noise, or need to look up a semi-common word whose meaning I've forgotten several times, or of course the old classic of someone switching to English, my limitations in the language in spite of the number of hours and years I've put into it become extremely obvious. I try to balance it out with remembering how much I can do and what that has added and continues to add to my life, and in the last few years I've learnt to stop taking the negatives personally and see them more impartially, but I can't help but be realistic. I have also come to the same realisation as Brun Ugle that that magic threshold will likely never come and how I feel about my ability might be a matter of attitude more than skill.

[aaleks]

I suppose my (somewhat disappointed?) takeaway was that all these learners, despite their time invested, are not achieving the comprehension I would have assumed after such an investment, regardless of the label on the level.

Morgana, if you are interested only in media then I'd say that it is possible to reach a level when you can understand practically everything. Or at least everything you would understand, or would care to understand in your native language. I might be mistaken but I believe that my passive skills are about C1-C2, even though my writing is not so good (yet?).

[Cavesa]

I suppose my (somewhat disappointed?) takeaway was that all these learners, despite their time invested, are not achieving the comprehension I would have assumed after such an investment, regardless of the label on the level.

Morgana, if you are interested only in media then I'd say that it is possible to reach a level when you can understand practically everything. Or at least everything you would understand, or would care to understand in your native language. I might be mistaken but I believe that my passive skills are about C1-C2, even though my writing is not so good (yet?).

I'd agree with Aaleks. I really don't think the situation is "B2 is worthless and the learners at that level are just delusional and incompetent".

The description in the link from rdearman (which is a checklist I like very much) is much more precise than any % estimates. If we'd agree to guess any %, I think it would be like the norms for a % of tv in sign language (which is given by law in my country, for example). No, not every second or third sentence of everything is being translated, but some programs are completely translated, and some are not translated at all.

It is similar for language learners. A B2 learner is likely to understand some kinds of media almost perfectly, but mostly fail at some others. It is a solid level of comprehension and not a failure, it is just not enough for people with some kinds of expectations. This forum contains much more ambitious learners than the rest of the world I am also convinced Aaleks is right that getting the passive skills to a higher level is not that difficult. A lot of people on an overall B2 level have higher comprehension skills than production ones. Or they might fulfil some criteria from the checklist, but not all of them. Insisting that not being perfect at all the criteria means failure or just delusion concerning one's level, that is simply wrong. There is a Czech saying. "Být papežštější než papež." To be more pope-like than the pope himself. I get this impression quite often during discussions about cefr

I believe B2 is a level, at which you can definitely profit from your skills a lot. The problem is a not too big vocabulary (most sources I use consider B2 to require something like 4000 words), still some mistakes and gaps in grammar (which leads to less nuanced speech and writing, just like low vocabulary), and a varying level of comprehension, depending on the type of media or situation.

Really, I don't think there is any point in either overestimating or underestimating it. The variety of experience on this thread is a clear example.

I think we are once again seeing the huge difference between the more american and more european experience, or a more English native vs non English native one. I suppose that an English native might not value B2 skills in another language so much, as they are too used to natives of other languages speaking very good English. It is not the same kind of competition that the rest of us experiences. But trust me, that for someone with a trash native language (like Czech), even B2 in a foreign language can be completely life changing! It already opens a whole new world of media, education, entertainment. Just look at the millions of people profiting from B2ish skills while watching tv series or playing computer games, or using better university textbooks. There are lots of people totally happy with their B2, if they get a better job or move abroad thanks to it (B2 is the entry level required of foreign doctors in Germany in most regions, that's a good example). B2 is already viewed as something respectful, and will make others perceive you as better educated. Truth be told, I believe you'll get much more admiration and respect for B2 in three languages here (as B2 is certainly a level at which you can honestly say you speak the language) than for C2 in one, people don't usually make any differences beyond a certain point.

[leosmith]

My bolding, and to be fair to leosmith he did say his “best guess is that’s a B2,” and to be even more fair, some other responders have also given me the impression that B2 is very far from comfortable in this regard. So, if B2 is only understanding half of tv and movies, it is certainly an expectations adjustment for me as a learner. I was hoping one would be closer to 80-90%+ comprehension , not >50%. This thread is illuminating. I’m glad it was made and grateful to everyone who has contributed.

Yes, I truly don't know if I'd pass a B2 test or equivalent in all the language I've listed as such. What I've noticed though is that my conversation is quite good and seems to match what I've read B2 is supposed to be for those languages. Although I feel like I understand about 99% of what my conversation partners say, my listening to TV and such may not meet the B2 criteria, probably because it's not as important to me and I learn in a way that focuses on conversation. I've read posts from quite a few people over the years who don't put much effort into conversation and reach high levels in listening in the beginning. I don't think I could succeed like that. I had a Russian girl as a roommate in France who was evaluated as C1 by her school. My French was A2/B1 at the time, but my conversation was much better than hers. I don't want to be like that. We talked to each other in English

Oh and a note about the 'difficult' listening I mentioned - it's not just vocabulary, but speed that's an issue. And when I say 50%, that's at a sentence level; I'm probably understanding 90%+ of the vocabulary, my brain just can't unravel it in time. But with TV and Movies it's pretty clear what's going on so it feels like it's worth watching even at that level. By the way, European languages are much easier to comprehend (for native English speakers like yourself) and will improve with very little coaxing, so don't be too discouraged.