MrPenguin wrote:Most native speakers of English rarely interact with non-native speakers in real life, rarely consume media produced by non-native speakers etc. Unless this changes, I don't see these non-native variants from around the world having that much of an impact on the language in anglophone countries in the immediate future. And native speakers will, for the foreseeable future, remain the model for most learners.
While I agree that the natives are unlikely to be affected, I simply cannot agree with the last statement. Are the native speaker really the model for most learners?
On paper, sure. If you ask them, of course they will parrot this. And those who consume lots of tv series and similar stuff in English will also be closer to the natives. But that is still not the majority.
Most learners' desire is not to be like a native. Their desire is to pass their exams and then do their job in English. The models they really hear around themselves are in most cases not the natives. When you work in an international company (I know various people in various such teams), you adapt to the language around you. And that is non native English.
So, of course those people will naively tell you "yes, I would like to speak like Jack, our Irish boss, who visits our department three times a year". But the real model they hear every day and that moulds their English is the mix of ESL speakers with Czech/Hungarian/Italian/... as their native languages. And they will admit that they struggle understanding that Jack, whenever he visits.
It might be slightly different in the scandinavian countries (or any other with unusually high overall level of English), but those are simply not the standard.
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sjintje wrote:describes a British TV interviewer asking a perplexed ...
It perplexes me, that uk tv interviewers always use such idiomatic and colloquial language when interviewing foreigners. Over the last few decades, all aspects of even supposedly "serious" television have been made more accessible by the use of more familiar, day to day laguage, because standard english sounds too formal, but the interviewers and producers seem to be unaware that this "simplified language" is likely to be more difficult for non native speakers.
The surprising bit is actually how well the interviewees seem to cope, even when they have relatively poor english. I think everyone just gets used to bluffing when they speak english.
Yes, this is exact. The less formal English may be easier for the natives, but is harder for the non natives.
The interviewees cope, because they haven't got any alternative. The public punishment for "not speaking English" is simply too harsh. Even a real star that would demand to be interviewed in their own (and important) language would look weird. And when you are a "middle sized star" from a not that privileged country, you are probably glad they are even talking to you and you don't want the label of a moron.
I don't know, why so many natives do not realise that the formal language is actually the easier one. It is the one being taught earlier, and it is also the more regular and less region and background affected one. I'd say it is a similar oversight as the one in most vocab size tests. The majority of those tests believes that difficult and rare vocabulary=medical vocabulary. But anybody with a bit of a background in that field in most european languages will do really well on such a test, no matter their real vocab size. Really, what is difficult and what is easy is not universal at all
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Adrianslont wrote:MrPenguin wrote:Most native speakers of English rarely interact with non-native speakers in real life, rarely consume media produced by non-native speakers etc. Unless this changes, I don't see these non-native variants from around the world having that much of an impact on the language in anglophone countries in the immediate future. And native speakers will, for the foreseeable future, remain the model for most learners.
I guess it depends where you live but I am a native speaker of English and I interact with non-native speakers everyday, unless I stay indoors and talk to no one.
I live in a big city in Australia, in a neighbourhood that is much less multicultural than other parts of the city - yet 9/30 houses in my street have non-native speakers of English. Probably 90%+ of the shop assistants I deal with are non-native. When I eat out the staff are always non-native. I participate in a community group and it is 75%+ non-native. When I still worked about 50% of my colleagues were non-native. Unfortunately I’ve been spending time getting various health problems sorted this year and about 50% (very roughly) of the doctors, dentists, nurses and other hospital staff I have met have been non-native. If I make a “business” phone call there is more than a 50% chance I will speak to a non-native, either here in Australia or located offshore.
That’s just me, a sample of one, but as far as I can see from my travels, if you live in a big “English-speaking” city you will interact with many people who don’t have English as a native language - certainly that is the case for large Australian and English cities I have visited. I’m pretty sure that’s also true for the largest US and Canadian cities, too.
That said, I agree - I don’t think the non-native variants are impacting English in “anglophone” countries substantially - I think american tv has a bigger impact in Australia. I just wanted to describe the reality of living in the world’s multicultural “anglophone” cities.
This is an excellent post, thanks.
I'd say this is one of the reasons, why so many immigrants do not learn the local language that well. Yes, some don't even try. Others try but they still need to spend time in their native language instead. And others try and use English every day, but they simply reach the ceiling of what is the English ability in their surrounding area.
When I talk to others in a different language, my skills change. I don't know whether it is the same for everyone or I am a bit too adaptable. But when I talk to natives or really good non natives for a while, I subconsciously improve. But when I speak to worse speakers (for example on Erasmus), I worsen too. Partially consciously (as I know they simply haven't got the vocabulary, for example), partially subconsciously. That's why I really believe that the classmates in the language classes are not an asset, they are an obstacle. And I think that while the native speakers in such a city do not "suffer" from catching Bad English from their non native neighbours (and it might be an interesting discussion, whether the Australian English really changes due to the tons of American TV), I'd say it is pretty obvious that the non natives have very little chance to get their language skills above a certain level. At least unless they manage to move elsewhere, to be the only immigrant among the natives. So, again, there is a bilingual area. Just instead of the neighbourhood being bilingually English and Something, it becomes English and Bad English.