One million sentences to mastery?

[blueSkyred]

Thats not to say graded readers aren't useful for Japanese, just that the approach of making a book that someone can read without studying anything before (as is the objective of the nature method books and Lingua latina per se illustrata) is probably impossible.

I have been working on a website that is more or less similar to the lingua latina for the Japanese language. It uses emojis to introduce words and then uses them in sentences and short stories. It might not be perfect but it proves that it is possible. The only requirement is to know Hiragana and Katakana before which is a fairly weak requirement.

I'd like to share it there since it is relevant to the topic discussed but I don't want to be banned for spamming.

[白田龍]

I'd like to share it there since it is relevant to the topic discussed but I don't want to be banned for spamming.

It must be this one:

https://drdru.github.io/

This is really hillarious, too bad I know too much Japanese to try and use it for learning.

[blueSkyred]

Yes it's this one

Thank you for taking the time to find it!

[elka]

I think that it is nice to have a number to strive for but I don’t think anyone should get caught up on a specific number. I mean I have no idea how many sentences I heard/read in English but I’d say I am rather proficient. If I was to start learning today and came across a video that said I need to study 1 000 000 sentences I would have never got to 1 000 (and I don’t think I am alone in this). This amount of sentences is simply overwhelming. I think the best thing is not to set a specific number of sentences you drill in Anki but to enjoy the language by watching TV shows, reading and listening to music etc. You will get to 1 000 000 sentences much faster than you would if you were purposefully aiming for it. Also another point worth mentioning is that when you reach 1 000 000 sentences, you won’t magically “learn” a language and understand everything. Learning a language is a lifelong process and in reality you will never fully “learn” a language because there will still be more to learn.

[s_allard]

I think that it is nice to have a number to strive for but I don’t think anyone should get caught up on a specific number. I mean I have no idea how many sentences I heard/read in English but I’d say I am rather proficient. If I was to start learning today and came across a video that said I need to study 1 000 000 sentences I would have never got to 1 000 (and I don’t think I am alone in this). This amount of sentences is simply overwhelming. I think the best thing is not to set a specific number of sentences you drill in Anki but to enjoy the language by watching TV shows, reading and listening to music etc. You will get to 1 000 000 sentences much faster than you would if you were purposefully aiming for it. Also another point worth mentioning is that when you reach 1 000 000 sentences, you won’t magically “learn” a language and understand everything. Learning a language is a lifelong process and in reality you will never fully “learn” a language because there will still be more to learn.

I can't say this any better myself. But I'll be even more blunt: in my opinion the idea of a million sentences to mastering a language is downright silly. If this is just a metaphor for more is better than less, then I would tend to agree. The more you read, speak, write or hear, the better you get. Who can disagree with that?

When I watched the video, I agreed with pretty much everything the author said except for those figures at the end. I think we have to keep in mind that Latin is not exactly a widely spoken language today. I would think that most people are learning to read and write it. That's not the case for most of us here.

Let's transpose this discussion to learning a contemporary language. Will a million sentences of reading, tv shows, podcasts, books, etc. take you to a C2 level in Spanish? Who knows? My guess is as good as yours. And how do you measure and keep track of all these sentences?

To be specific, let's ask how many books do you need to read to master a language. One, ten, twenty or fifty? We can all agree that fifty is better than one but in my opinion one or two properly chosen books will probably give you a complete range of all the language forms that you will need to be comfortable in the language. In fact, I would suggest that instead of reading 10 books, you should read two books five times each.

All of this smacks of an attempt to find some magical formula for learning a language. 5000 words, 10 books, 100 hours of TV, 20 podcasts, two years, etc. As was pointed out here learning a language, even one's native tongue, is a never-ending task. What we basically want to achieve is milestones. Can I enjoy watching a television news program, reading a newspaper or have a conversation with a native speaker, all in the target language? How we get there is the subject of endless debate.

[lysi]

What we basically want to achieve is milestones. Can I enjoy watching a television news program, reading a newspaper or have a conversation with a native speaker, all in the target language? How we get there is the subject of endless debate.

I think this is something endemic to a lot of subjects. People care more about the end result than the process. You have to learn to enjoy the journey.

[elka]

I think that it is nice to have a number to strive for but I don’t think anyone should get caught up on a specific number. I mean I have no idea how many sentences I heard/read in English but I’d say I am rather proficient. If I was to start learning today and came across a video that said I need to study 1 000 000 sentences I would have never got to 1 000 (and I don’t think I am alone in this). This amount of sentences is simply overwhelming. I think the best thing is not to set a specific number of sentences you drill in Anki but to enjoy the language by watching TV shows, reading and listening to music etc. You will get to 1 000 000 sentences much faster than you would if you were purposefully aiming for it. Also another point worth mentioning is that when you reach 1 000 000 sentences, you won’t magically “learn” a language and understand everything. Learning a language is a lifelong process and in reality you will never fully “learn” a language because there will still be more to learn.

I can't say this any better myself. But I'll be even more blunt: in my opinion the idea of a million sentences to mastering a language is downright silly. If this is just a metaphor for more is better than less, then I would tend to agree. The more you read, speak, write or hear, the better you get. Who can disagree with that?

When I watched the video, I agreed with pretty much everything the author said except for those figures at the end. I think we have to keep in mind that Latin is not exactly a widely spoken language today. I would think that most people are learning to read and write it. That's not the case for most of us here.

Let's transpose this discussion to learning a contemporary language. Will a million sentences of reading, tv shows, podcasts, books, etc. take you to a C2 level in Spanish? Who knows? My guess is as good as yours. And how do you measure and keep track of all these sentences?

To be specific, let's ask how many books do you need to read to master a language. One, ten, twenty or fifty? We can all agree that fifty is better than one but in my opinion one or two properly chosen books will probably give you a complete range of all the language forms that you will need to be comfortable in the language. In fact, I would suggest that instead of reading 10 books, you should read two books five times each.

All of this smacks of an attempt to find some magical formula for learning a language. 5000 words, 10 books, 100 hours of TV, 20 podcasts, two years, etc. As was pointed out here learning a language, even one's native tongue, is a never-ending task. What we basically want to achieve is milestones. Can I enjoy watching a television news program, reading a newspaper or have a conversation with a native speaker, all in the target language? How we get there is the subject of endless debate.

I’m glad I have found someone with the same view on this matter Language learning progress just can’t be quantified. As an English learner I know being proficient in a foreign language takes a LOT of work. I’d say much more than it might seem. I have estimated that in my life I have spend about 30 000+ hours of listening and reading in English of which I have comprehended around 25 000 hours and yet I am hardly a low C2 passively and I feel like a B2- actively Should I therefore say that in order to reach a high C1 level passively you have to spend 30 000+ hours reading and listening to the language? I suppose nobody wants to here that. As a Spanish learner, I sympathize with the people who need to quantify their progress, mostly because it feels so slow. My goal in every language I have tried to learn is to understand TV shows, films, podcasts, news articles, books etc. I am on a level now in Spanish at which I understand basic sentences in a TV show (currently watching the Crown) but I still have so many more words to learn to comfortably understand what is being said. Just like many here, I have googled “how long from A2 to B2” even though I know it is not that simple and the progress is never linear. I guess what I’m trying to get at here is that I fully understand somebody trying to find the right number of words to learn to reach an X level and there is nothing inherently bad about that but I would advise against being too focused on the number and to just enjoy the process, however cheesy that sounds.

[Cenwalh]

Since this has become active again two years after I posted it when I was a relative newcomer both to the forum and to language learning, I might as well update what I think on the topic here.

I don't think I ever thought there was a 'magic number' or a best way to quantify learning. It's pretty clear from my signature that says I reached a million sentences that the idea did influence my thinking though.

When I started this thread I was listening to a few Spanish podcasts here and there, and watching a bit of Pepper Pig. What the million sentences target (albeit arbitrarily picked from a round base 10 number) did for me was change my mindset. I moved from thinking a little bit of input would introduce me to everything there is to know to realising that I would need a lot, a hell of a lot. Especially if I didn't want to learn grammar from a grammar book (as I didn't and still don't).

I learn languages because I love doing so. Most people here are the same. So sure I do enjoy the process, but giving something to aim for whether it be sentences, flash cards, books, grammar exercises, or whatever else, can bring the results one desires and increase the enjoyment along the way.

Regarding whether the actual target of one million was a good one, I still believe it was a good choice both for me and for the video in the OP, despite dubious claims about possibly non-existent studies. Obviously improvement varies from person to person and from language to language, but they rarely vary by an order of magnitude.

[s_allard]

...

When I started this thread I was listening to a few Spanish podcasts here and there, and watching a bit of Pepper Pig. What the million sentences target (albeit arbitrarily picked from a round base 10 number) did for me was changed my mindset. I moved from thinking a little bit of input would introduce me to everything there is to know to realising that I would need a lot, a hell of a lot. Especially if I didn't want to learn grammar from a grammar book (as I didn't and still don't).

I learn languages because I love doing so. Most people here are the same. So sure I do enjoy the process, but giving something to aim for whether it be sentences, flash cards, books, grammar exercises, or whatever else, can bring the results one desires and increase the enjoyment along the way.

Regarding whether the actual target of one million was a good one, I still believe it was a good choice both for me and for the video in the OP, despite dubious claims about possibly non-existent studies. Obviously improvement varies from person to person and from language to language, but they rarely vary by an order of magnitude.

I have nothing against a target of a million sentences for learning a language. If that is what it takes to motivate you, go for it. Of if you estimate that this is what it took to achieve a certain level, I can't disagree.

I gather that we are talking about mastering written and oral comprehension. I don't see any mention of written or oral production. How many sentences would be required to achieve mastery in speaking a language?

Let's take Spanish that I know a bit about. In my mind, mastering spoken Spanish means that you can have a conversation about a given topic with a native speaker. The conversation is at nearly native level in terms of content and form. Sure, you still have a foreign accent but what you say is interesting, engaging and not obscured by any grammatical or vocabulary issues. In other words, language is no longer a barrier. You are not a native speaker, but talking with you is interesting and informative.

How many Spanish sentences are required to get there? Sentences of what? Listening, reading, speaking? What about formal grammar study? Yes or no? How many hours of tutoring, if any?

As old-timers around here know, I believe in quality rather than quantity. Reading one 400-page book in Spanish about twice, including reading entire pages aloud to on-line tutors, did it for me. That one book contained nearly all the Spanish grammar and a huge chunk of the vocabulary that I ever needed. All the reading afterwards gave me more vocabulary.

Similarly, one telenovela that I studied in detail took my oral comprehension to another level. And then of course working with a tutor or conversation partner took my speaking skills over the top.

Can I estimate how many sentences were required for me to arrive at a given level? As I said before, I think the question is irrelevant - actually I was less polite. It just takes what it takes.

[luke]

I believe in quality rather than quantity. Reading one 400-page book in Spanish about twice, including reading entire pages aloud to on-line tutors, did it for me. That one book contained nearly all the Spanish grammar and a huge chunk of the vocabulary that I ever needed. All the reading afterwards gave me more vocabulary.

Similarly, one telenovela that I studied in detail took my oral comprehension to another level. And then of course working with a tutor or conversation partner took my speaking skills over the top.

Very curious what that book or two you used for Spanish were.

And which telenovela?

I understand the specifics aren't going to be applicable to everyone, but knowing the specific book and telenovela do give some clues as to what worked for you. Obviously your genius and the tutor helped, but so did the book and telenovela.

Care to share?