One million sentences to mastery?

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jeffers
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Re: One million sentences to mastery?

Postby jeffers » Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:49 pm

Cavesa wrote:-a part of that attitude is a good learning curve, created by the appropriate reading choices. The author basically gives us a very clear overview on how to progress from the easiest step to the hardest one. I love that. Something similar is actually what I recommend to other people interested in extensive reading all the time (actually, I'd love to know what the author of the video thinks about the Latin Harry Potter and the Hobbit, whether he'd recommend them, and to which phase would he add them. I guess the easy non bilingual reads. Unless he is against translated modern works, that is possible).


Alongside Harry Potter and the Hobbit, don't forget about Winnie Ille Pu!

I read an article a few years back about a study on reading and the effect on vocabulary acquisition, in which the author emphasized that students who were allowed to read books of their own choice made much more progress than students who were given set readings. The choices of successful students in the study were most often what would often be called "trashy", such as teen novels and romance novels, but the difference came because the students were motivated to read more. In the author's own reflections he said that reading is "the best" way to learn a language, that simple translated books in series were effective, and that for himself when he was learning a new language he had read loads of Star Trek novels translated into that language. I want to say that the article was by Stephen Krashen, but I can't remember for sure.

For my part, a great tool would be a book series that is easy enough to read but interesting enough to both read many books in the series and to re-read some or all of them several times. Personally, I still prefer if it is a native original and not a translation, because cultural understanding is a large part of my motivation for language learning. This series is the Holy Grail of language learning if it also has audiobooks of many of the books. For learning French, Le petit Nicolas has met all of my criteria and filled this function for me admirably. Sadly I have yet to find such a series for German or for Hindi, although Tintin in Hindi might fill that role.
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Re: One million sentences to mastery?

Postby tokyohermit » Sun May 17, 2020 10:42 pm

Does anyone know a direct method text like this for Japanese?

If I were to make a translation of one of these into Japanese, would I be breaking copyright?
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Re: One million sentences to mastery?

Postby Voytek » Mon May 18, 2020 12:59 pm

tokyohermit wrote:Does anyone know a direct method text like this for Japanese?


May I know what that method is about? I'm studying Japanese.
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Re: One million sentences to mastery?

Postby jmar257 » Mon May 18, 2020 1:51 pm

Cenwalh wrote:[*]How many sentences do you think you've heard/read in your target language(s)?[/list]

I don't know about any research on the one million mark specifically, nor do I have any idea how many sentences I've been exposed to in my languages. That said, this thread did inspire me to add a rough sentence count to my document where I track books/pages/words read (which isn't even a full count, it's only LingQ + books, and has no audio count but I might add minutes of TV/Movies). I'm only at 78K sentences, with a sentence being 15 words. I can imagine I'll read pretty well at 1 million, especially given that I'm reading translated thrillers/action novels with no problem right now that, according to the Duolingo CEFR checker I saw posted to this forum recently, are B2 level.
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Re: One million sentences to mastery?

Postby devilyoudont » Mon May 18, 2020 4:17 pm

tokyohermit wrote:Does anyone know a direct method text like this for Japanese?

If I were to make a translation of one of these into Japanese, would I be breaking copyright?


I think you're looking for Japanese graded readers

https://omgjapan.com/products/japanese- ... mplete-set
https://www.whiterabbitpress.com/japanesegradedreaders/
https://www.reddit.com/r/LearnJapanese/ ... s_into_an/
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Re: One million sentences to mastery?

Postby tokyohermit » Tue May 19, 2020 12:22 am

Voytek wrote:
tokyohermit wrote:Does anyone know a direct method text like this for Japanese?


May I know what that method is about? I'm studying Japanese.


I already speak Japanese and I was wondering about the value of making a translation (or a rough translation) of a book like Jennings 'English by the Nature Method' for those wishing to learn Japanese. I have already been through Lingua Latina and Le Francais par la Methode Nature and found them extremely useful. Hence my question.
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Re: One million sentences to mastery?

Postby Cenwalh » Tue May 19, 2020 8:45 am

tokyohermit wrote:
Voytek wrote:
tokyohermit wrote:Does anyone know a direct method text like this for Japanese?


May I know what that method is about? I'm studying Japanese.


I already speak Japanese and I was wondering about the value of making a translation (or a rough translation) of a book like Jennings 'English by the Nature Method' for those wishing to learn Japanese. I have already been through Lingua Latina and Le Francais par la Methode Nature and found them extremely useful. Hence my question.


Such a book would never work for Japanese targeted at Europeans though. These work with Romance and Germanic languages because they're related and the reader already knows how to read the script. With Japanese a learner wouldn't know how to read it and wouldn't be able to pick out any cognates.

Whether it would be possible to write it almost entirely in kanji such that a Chinese person could read it I have no idea, but I can't help but think that that wouldn't be useful to know how to pronounce the kanji, and how could you ever introduce hiragana and katakana besides just learning them?

Thats not to say graded readers aren't useful for Japanese, just that the approach of making a book that someone can read without studying anything before (as is the objective of the nature method books and Lingua latina per se illustrata) is probably impossible. I'd be happy to stand corrected about any points I've made - I don't know any Japanese.
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Re: One million sentences to mastery?

Postby devilyoudont » Tue May 19, 2020 10:54 am

Most native material for young people and children have ruby/furigana reading aids. So it's probably possible to go into native material only after studying the phonetic kana, and this, for most people, takes less than 2 weeks. However, I think because of the grammar being fundamentally different from Indo-European languages, and because of the relative lack of loans/cognates from Latin and Greek in Japanese, this kind of approach would be incredibly difficult for most learners who speak a major Indo-European language natively.
Last edited by devilyoudont on Tue May 19, 2020 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: One million sentences to mastery?

Postby Voytek » Tue May 19, 2020 2:49 pm

jmar257 wrote:
Cenwalh wrote:[*]How many sentences do you think you've heard/read in your target language(s)?[/list]

I don't know about any research on the one million mark specifically, nor do I have any idea how many sentences I've been exposed to in my languages. That said, this thread did inspire me to add a rough sentence count to my document where I track books/pages/words read (which isn't even a full count, it's only LingQ + books, and has no audio count but I might add minutes of TV/Movies). I'm only at 78K sentences, with a sentence being 15 words. I can imagine I'll read pretty well at 1 million, especially given that I'm reading translated thrillers/action novels with no problem right now that, according to the Duolingo CEFR checker I saw posted to this forum recently, are B2 level.


I invested in listening to Swedish (LR Method) around 300h and in reading and listening to Swedish 50h and I can read it fluently looking up words only from time to time. I feel I need maybe around 200h more for filling in some vocabulary gaps if any and I should be really fine.

Apart from this I've been reviewing flashcards in Anki for over three years (around 60 single words/day). Around 4500 words (from a frequency list) in total. Now I learn new vocabulary by adding sentences from my Kindle. I think it was around 200h for reviewing the cards. So it's like 550h invested in Swedish. Plus some basic course,a pronunciation course and 2 books of Glossika which took 100h altogether. It gives around 700h in total. I didn't take into account around 100h I spent for creating the flashcards.

It's been only 10 minutes for the exposure and 15 minutes for the reviews every day for over three years.
Last edited by Voytek on Tue May 19, 2020 11:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: One million sentences to mastery?

Postby tokyohermit » Tue May 19, 2020 8:32 pm

Cenwalh wrote:
tokyohermit wrote:
Voytek wrote:
tokyohermit wrote:Does anyone know a direct method text like this for Japanese?


May I know what that method is about? I'm studying Japanese.


I already speak Japanese and I was wondering about the value of making a translation (or a rough translation) of a book like Jennings 'English by the Nature Method' for those wishing to learn Japanese. I have already been through Lingua Latina and Le Francais par la Methode Nature and found them extremely useful. Hence my question.


Such a book would never work for Japanese targeted at Europeans though. These work with Romance and Germanic languages because they're related and the reader already knows how to read the script. With Japanese a learner wouldn't know how to read it and wouldn't be able to pick out any cognates.

Whether it would be possible to write it almost entirely in kanji such that a Chinese person could read it I have no idea, but I can't help but think that that wouldn't be useful to know how to pronounce the kanji, and how could you ever introduce hiragana and katakana besides just learning them?

Thats not to say graded readers aren't useful for Japanese, just that the approach of making a book that someone can read without studying anything before (as is the objective of the nature method books and Lingua latina per se illustrata) is probably impossible. I'd be happy to stand corrected about any points I've made - I don't know any Japanese.


OK, I think it is possible and it would look something like this.
1.
田中直人は男です。 田中きみこは女です。
Tanaka Naoto wa otoko desu. Tanaka Kimiko wa onna desu
Tanaka Naoto is a man. Tanaka Kimiko is a woman.

アキラは男の子です。 エミは女の子です。
Akira wa otokonoko desu. Emi wa onnanoko desu.
Akira is a boy. Emi is a girl.

賢司は男の子です 智子は女の子です
Kenji wa otokonoko desu. Tomoko wa onnanoko desu.
Kaiki is a boy. Tomoko is a girl.

田中直人が父親 田中貴美子が母親
Tanaka Naoto wa chichioya desu. Tanaka Kimiko wa hahaoya desu.
Tanaka Naoto is the father Tanaka Kimiko is the mother.

アキラは子供です。 エミは子供です。
Akira wa kodomo desu. Emi wa kodomo desu.
Akira is a child. Emi is a child.

賢司は子供です。 智子は子供です
Kenji wa kodomo desu. Tomoko wa kodomo desu.
Kenji is a child. Tomoko is a child.

This is a rough draft of a 'adaption' I made of the first page of what I think such a book would look like based on some of the other similar texts. Its just an experiment really. One could presume that the reader knew hiragana/ katakana (very simple to learn) and get rid of the kanji, or you could add a 4th line on top of the kanji (furigana) but I think that might make the whole thing a bit unwieldy. An explanation of each kanji could be given on the side of the page? anyway, its just an idea....
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