How to learn an Italian dialect?

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chicato
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How to learn an Italian dialect?

Postby chicato » Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:10 am

Hello everyone!

I'm considering possibly studying a southern Italian dialect, (preferably Neapolitan, but I'm also open to the idea of Sicilian) with the intent to be able to understand it. I don't really care much about speaking it, but I would like to be able to understand it.

A few of my friends from Tuscany have parents from the south of Italy and thus they are able to understand, (and to a lesser degree,) speak these dialects. Because of this, they claim to be able to understand almost all of the southern Italian Dialects, (within reason.)

I also want this ability :D

My questions are:
1. Which (southern) Italian dialect has the most resources?
2. Which (southern) Italian dialect would work best for opening up comprehension to the rest of these dialects?
3. As a C1-C2 Speaker of Italian / Spanish, and ~B2 speaker of Brazilian Portuguese and French, (I've never studied Latin, however,) how difficult would it be to learn a Southern Italian dialect?

Thanks!
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Re: How to learn an Italian dialect?

Postby Speakeasy » Sat Apr 06, 2019 1:58 pm

Hello, chicato, welcome to the forum! I look forward to reading your comments on many other topics here on the forum. While I cannot answer any of your questions directly, I notice that member dampingwire drew our attention to the following course in October, 2018:

Dialetti in Italia - Free Online Course
https://www.classcentral.com/course/edx-dialetti-in-italia-11398?utm_source=fcc_medium&utm_medium=web&utm_campaign=new_courses_october_2018

Here is a list of some previous discussions of Italian dialects:

Italian Dialects course - LLORG – October 2018
https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&p=119122#p119122

Italian dialects - LLORG – May 2016
https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2808

Gabagool-Mutzadell- Italian-American dialect holdover - LLORG - May 2016
https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?f=14&p=34285#p34285

Ciao, for now!

EDITED:
Additional comments removed subsequent to replies from nooj and lingua.
Last edited by Speakeasy on Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:45 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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nooj
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Re: How to learn an Italian dialect?

Postby nooj » Sat Apr 06, 2019 4:55 pm

Italian 'dialetti' are not at all like French dialects or English dialects.

They are their own Romance languages descending from Latin and are different from Italian in many significant ways. Sicilian, a language from the south of Italy, is basically incomprehensible to an Italian speaker. A Spanish speaker might as well have better luck.
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Re: How to learn an Italian dialect?

Postby Speakeasy » Sat Apr 06, 2019 6:06 pm

Thank you, nooj, for correcting me! I feel even better now, having “hedged my bet” by saying that I had never studied Italian dialects! On a more serious note, your comments on the uniqueness of Italian dialects are an important contribution to the discussion.
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Re: How to learn an Italian dialect?

Postby lingua » Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:47 pm

Chicato, I've studied Sicilian, Piemontèse and Napoletano in the past and will return to them as well as other dialects in the future when I have more free time. I enjoy studying them and since I come across various dialects in the Italian books I read I've found that understanding them can help with my reading comprehension.

Gaetano Cipolla is a retired italian professor that has an obvious love of the Sicilian language. He wrote a textbook course called Learn Scilian / Mparama lu sicilianu and he also edited Introduction to Siclian Grammar by JK Bonner. I have both of these books. Sicilian itself has distinct dialects so Cipolla's textbook is only a start.

Piemontese and Napoletano don't seem to have much in the way of materials from what I can see in my searches. I've been told by a Torinese that Piemontèse is a cross between Italian and French. Clozemaster has Italian/Piemontèis and English/Piemontèis. I read that there was a push to teach it in the schools and a small textbook was available at one time but I've never been able to find it.

The biggest problem you'll have is that materials are hard to come by and what you can find online is often incomplete so Sicilian might be a good choice since there are a few books available.
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Re: How to learn an Italian dialect?

Postby StringerBell » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:35 pm

Why do you want to learn a southern dialect?

The only experience I have with Italian dialetti is with Bresciano - a northern language, which is what my husband speaks in addition to Italian. People who grew up 1-2 hours away from him can not understand him when he speaks dialetto, and he can not understand dialetti that come from areas that are not bordering his. So, even though he's from the northern central part of Italy, he does not understand northeastern (Verona, Venezia, Trieste) dialetti, for example. This makes me a little suspicious of the idea that learning one southern dialetto will allow you to understand most of them, but I'm not an expert, maybe it's possible.

His dialetto has a lot of Germanic and French sounds and even though I have very good comprehension of Italian, when he's speaking dialetto, I can neither produce those sounds nor understand what he's saying. So learning dialetto (with some exceptions) is really learning a completely distinct language, made especially difficult by the fact that dialetti are not written languages (in my husband's dialetto, there's no consensus on how many sounds should be spelled, since they don't exist in Italian, so in the few cases where it's written, everyone kind of uses their own judgement on spelling). It's also rare to find people who speak pure dialetto (except for maybe 80+ year olds in the countryside). Even people who use a lot of dialetto tend to mix it up with Italian to different degrees. So finding user-friendly (or any) resources will range from impossible to challenging. I know that the 2 or 3 Netflix original series in Italian feature southern Italian, with some doses of dialetto (I think Napolitano), so you could start there and see what you think.

I ask why you want to learn, because at one point I thought it would be cool if I could learn my husband's dialetto, since some of his family and friends use it, and he said he missed speaking it. He actually told me that even though it bothered him a lot that dialetti were dying out, he didn't want me to learn it, because it felt weird; it's a language that's specific to his little region and in his opinion he prefers that only people who are from there speak it, it's sort of like a badge of honor or a stamp to show where you're from. It really surprised me that he felt like that, because he has zero national/regional pride, and he thinks it's great that I'm learning Italian. If he feels that way about his dialetto, I suspect a lot of other Italians may, too. That doesn't mean you shouldn't learn a dialetto if you want to, just that it will be a very different experience than learning Italian.

Have you checked out this free online course in Italian dialetti from edx.org? https://www.edx.org/course/dialetti-in-italia-2

*I can't bring myself to use "dialect" because the word dialect in English means a regional variation of a language, and each dialetto is a unique regional language that existed long before Italian, and are not mutually intelligible. I'm probably wrong about this, but the English word "dialect" feels like a false friend because I don't think dialetti are actually dialects.
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Re: How to learn an Italian dialect?

Postby nooj » Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:13 pm

StringerBell wrote: made especially difficult by the fact that dialetti are not written languages (in my husband's dialetto, there's no consensus on how many sounds should be spelled, since they don't exist in Italian, so in the few cases where it's written, everyone kind of uses their own judgement on spelling).


Many Italian languages were once the proud, written languages of Italian city states with a reasonably significant literature in said language. Sicilian, Venetian, Genoese are examples. It is true however that once Italian came onto the scene, it started to monopolise written literature, and once Italy was invented, Italian took over everything from administration to education.

But in principle, there is nothing that says you cannot write Italian languages. It is just that Italian languages are in a profound state of diglossia with Italian and Italian has driven all the other languages out from these spheres.

For interest's sake, here is Piacentino, an Emilian language (Emillan-Romagnol language) spoken in the province of Piacenza. It belongs to the Gallo-Italic language family, mostly spoken in north of Italy. And it is precisely the north of Italy where the Italian languages are most severely endangered. For whatever political, social, economic reason, they are being eaten alive by Italian at a much faster rate than languages in the south.

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Re: How to learn an Italian dialect?

Postby Serpent » Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:34 pm

Read about historical linguistics and vulgar Latin.
Find reasons beyond "I want to understand all Italian dialects". Remember that native speakers also use their knowledge of uncommon/archaic words to understand dialects and related languages. Work on your understanding of standard Italian. Listen to Raffaele Auriemma, for example. ;)

If you have Tuscan friends, why not learn to understand actual modern Tuscan better? :)

When it comes to comprehension, you can definitely learn to understand several "Italian" languages. Just keep reading and listening, and google unfamiliar words or ask language enthusiasts (not random native speakers).

This situation is not unique to Italy. As far as I can tell, it's pretty similar in Spain, Germany, Finland. Norway seems to be handling its linguistic diversity well.
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Re: How to learn an Italian dialect?

Postby dampingwire » Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:49 pm

nooj wrote:For interest's sake, here is Piacentino, an Emilian language (Emillan-Romagnol language) spoken in the province of Piacenza. It belongs to the Gallo-Italic language family, mostly spoken in north of Italy. And it is precisely the north of Italy where the Italian languages are most severely endangered. For whatever political, social, economic reason, they are being eaten alive by Italian at a much faster rate than languages in the south.


When my mum and my aunts and uncles spoke it together, I could've sworn I followed more of it ... but then I guess that I had some context to go on!

Lots more if you hunt out the hashtag:

https://www.facebook.com/parlummpiasintein/

https://www.parlummpiasintein.it/chi-siamo/

The latter leads you to: https://www.parlummpiasintein.it/ortogr ... iacentino/, but that just helps with writing.

And none of that will help the OP: piacentino is worlds apart from napoletano and siciliano.
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Re: How to learn an Italian dialect?

Postby Tristano » Wed Apr 24, 2019 7:41 am

StringerBell wrote:Why do you want to learn a southern dialect?

The only experience I have with Italian dialetti is with Bresciano - a northern language, which is what my husband speaks in addition to Italian. People who grew up 1-2 hours away from him can not understand him when he speaks dialetto, and he can not understand dialetti that come from areas that are not bordering his. So, even though he's from the northern central part of Italy, he does not understand northeastern (Verona, Venezia, Trieste) dialetti, for example. This makes me a little suspicious of the idea that learning one southern dialetto will allow you to understand most of them, but I'm not an expert, maybe it's possible.

His dialetto has a lot of Germanic and French sounds and even though I have very good comprehension of Italian, when he's speaking dialetto, I can neither produce those sounds nor understand what he's saying. So learning dialetto (with some exceptions) is really learning a completely distinct language, made especially difficult by the fact that dialetti are not written languages (in my husband's dialetto, there's no consensus on how many sounds should be spelled, since they don't exist in Italian, so in the few cases where it's written, everyone kind of uses their own judgement on spelling). It's also rare to find people who speak pure dialetto (except for maybe 80+ year olds in the countryside). Even people who use a lot of dialetto tend to mix it up with Italian to different degrees. So finding user-friendly (or any) resources will range from impossible to challenging. I know that the 2 or 3 Netflix original series in Italian feature southern Italian, with some doses of dialetto (I think Napolitano), so you could start there and see what you think.

I ask why you want to learn, because at one point I thought it would be cool if I could learn my husband's dialetto, since some of his family and friends use it, and he said he missed speaking it. He actually told me that even though it bothered him a lot that dialetti were dying out, he didn't want me to learn it, because it felt weird; it's a language that's specific to his little region and in his opinion he prefers that only people who are from there speak it, it's sort of like a badge of honor or a stamp to show where you're from. It really surprised me that he felt like that, because he has zero national/regional pride, and he thinks it's great that I'm learning Italian. If he feels that way about his dialetto, I suspect a lot of other Italians may, too. That doesn't mean you shouldn't learn a dialetto if you want to, just that it will be a very different experience than learning Italian.

Have you checked out this free online course in Italian dialetti from edx.org? https://www.edx.org/course/dialetti-in-italia-2

*I can't bring myself to use "dialect" because the word dialect in English means a regional variation of a language, and each dialetto is a unique regional language that existed long before Italian, and are not mutually intelligible. I'm probably wrong about this, but the English word "dialect" feels like a false friend because I don't think dialetti are actually dialects.


I come from lombardy and can understand all the northern dialects. Except the one from Genoa. I don't understand anything from southern dialects though. In addition, I'm afraid there is much more variation among the southern dialects. Among those you can even find a Catalan dialect (algherese) and a Greek one (grico).
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