How to learn an Italian dialect?

[Cainntear]

*I can't bring myself to use "dialect" because the word dialect in English means a regional variation of a language, and each dialetto is a unique regional language that existed long before Italian, and are not mutually intelligible. I'm probably wrong about this, but the English word "dialect" feels like a false friend because I don't think dialetti are actually dialects.

I (mostly) agree, and it's notable that "dialetti" are described as "dialetti italiano" (dialects that are from Italy) and not "dialetti del italiano" (dialects of the Italian language).

However, that subtle distinction is lost on many Italians who use "dialetto" exactly as English speakers use "dialect". They'll tell you that Sicilian is a language because they were invaded by Normans and Arabs and they have poetry books, but that Neapolitan is just "dialetto".

[Tristano]

They'll tell you that Sicilian is a language because they were invaded by Normans and Arabs and they have poetry books, but that Neapolitan is just "dialetto".

Naaa. We just consider people who speak a dialetto as primary language rude and uneducated, for the most part, and the dialetto itself orribile.

* in the north at least. The main difference between north and south here is that in the south they find orribile all the dialects except the one of the area where the speaker is born, while in the north even that one isn't safe.
** unless they live in the mountains or at least at the lake, there they are more fond of the dialect.
*** tuscan dialects are anyway not seen as dialects, more like 'funny italian'.

[dampingwire]

I (mostly) agree, and it's notable that "dialetti" are described as "dialetti italiano" (dialects that are from Italy) and not "dialetti del italiano" (dialects of the Italian language).

I think you might be reading a bit too much into that.

However, that subtle distinction is lost on many Italians who use "dialetto" exactly as English speakers use "dialect". They'll tell you that Sicilian is a language because they were invaded by Normans and Arabs and they have poetry books, but that Neapolitan is just "dialetto".

I don't think I've ever heard a native Italian speaker say anything that made me think they thought of their dialect as a variant of Italian with just a few unique words and perhaps a different lilt. For that matter, I'm not sure that I've heard an Italian dialect that sounds like comprehensible (or even only slightly mutated) Italian. Venetian, Sicilian and Neapolitan don't sound like Italian to me. I struggle with Piacentino, even though I've heard enough of it over the years.

[StringerBell]

I come from lombardy and can understand all the northern dialects. Except the one from Genoa.

Wow, that's pretty impressive! My husband can understand the dialetti from Milan and Bergamo (he's from Brescia) and maybe Verona/Mantova, but there are some dialetti in the mountains about an hour north of him that he can't understand at all, they are just so different. Pota...¯\_(ツ)_/¯

My favorite Italian comedian, who is from Brescia, is Vicenzo Regis. He uses a lot of Bresciano dialetto in his videos (and even makes videos explaining in Italian what some of those Bresciano words mean.

[PfifltriggPi]

Venetian, [...] don't sound like Italian to me.

I've been told that Venetian is, at its core, a Western Romance language which has gotten more and more Italian elements as it is slowly being eaten by it. But I know very little about Italian, so I can not really say.

[StringerBell]

I found an introduction to Sardinian dialetto on this site: http://www.nativlang.com/sardinian-lang ... hrases.php
It's quite short, but if you just want to say a few niceties while there, it could be useful. When I was there, I always had the feeling that it was really heavily influenced by Latin, because so many of the words had what seemed like Latin endings.

Here are a few examples of how Sardinian verbs are quite different from Italian:
mandicare = to eat

the past tense is: apo mandicatu I ate (lit. "I have eaten")
the future as deo mandicare I will eat (lit. "I ought to eat").

essere = to be
soe = I am
ses = you are
est= he/she/it is
semus = we are
sedzis = you are (pl)
suntu = they are

According to this website, Sardinian has no standard spelling system, so there's a lot of variation with that.

I especially like the question "Do you speak English?" which is: A faeddas s'ingresu?

[Chung]

They'll tell you that Sicilian is a language because they were invaded by Normans and Arabs and they have poetry books, but that Neapolitan is just "dialetto".

Naaa. We just consider people who speak a dialetto as primary language rude and uneducated, for the most part, and the dialetto itself orribile.

* in the north at least. The main difference between north and south here is that in the south they find orribile all the dialects except the one of the area where the speaker is born, while in the north even that one isn't safe.
** unless they live in the mountains or at least at the lake, there they are more fond of the dialect.
*** tuscan dialects are anyway not seen as dialects, more like 'funny italian'.

This has been my experience as well while learning Italian and listening to my teacher who's from Sicily. It's seemed to me that dialetto equals "dialect" with the unspoken perjorativeness surrounding that term compared to "(standard) language" (or lingua). That's arguably unfair and can betray social judgement but it's reality. We're not usually dealing with linguists whose definitions of "language" and "dialect" don't match the layman's.

In a similar sense with German or Polish, I wouldn't see the improvement or accuracy in referring collectively to Bavarian, Hessian, Swabian etc. as "German Dialekte" (or "German Mundarten") instead of "German dialects" or Masovian, Silesian etc. as "Polish dialekty" (or "Polish gwary") instead of "Polish dialects" when talking about them to my friends in English*. If anything, doing the code-switching mid-stream comes off as a little weird or even mannered. As with dialetto among Italians and "dialect" among us English-speakers, Dialekt / Mundart among German-speakers and dialekt / gwar among Poles often have less prestige than the terms Sprache and język respectively. Again, it's arguably unfair but it's reality.

* If I were wound up enough and had the chance, I'd probably geek out a bit and let on that at least some of those "dialects" are more accurately thought of as "languages" considering their divergence from each other or the standard language . "Dialect" etc. covers anything from a simple "non-standard" to an inaccurate or less charitable idea of "offshoot of the (standard) language" to an even less charitable one of "not totally comprehensible grammar/phrasing/pronunciation/vocabulary of a group/social class that I dislike or not from the same territory as I am".

[Saim]

I found an introduction to Sardinian dialetto on this site:

Sardinian is one of the languages recognised as such by Italian law, so I would just call it a "language". (Actually I would call all Italian languages languages, but Sardinian at least has official status).

According to this website, Sardinian has no standard spelling system, so there's a lot of variation with that.

I don't think that's true. It might not be universally used but I'm pretty sure the limba sarda comuna has a standardised orthography.

[StringerBell]

I found an introduction to Sardinian dialetto on this site:

Sardinian is one of the languages recognised as such by Italian law, so I would just call it a "language". (Actually I would call all Italian languages languages, but Sardinian at least has official status).

According to this website, Sardinian has no standard spelling system, so there's a lot of variation with that.

I don't think that's true. It might not be universally used but I'm pretty sure the limba sarda comuna has a standardised orthography.

You can call dialetto a "language" if you want, but I will stick with dialetto, because that's what Italians call it. I have a very good friend from Sardinia, who herself calls Sardo a "dialetto", so I think it would be kind of weird to start referring to her dialetto as a language, she'd have no idea what I was talking about, nor would anyone else.

While I know dialetti were once languages with a writing system a million years ago, today they are no longer really written languages (except for town signs and occasional comments on YT videos). My husband speaks dialetto, but has explained that there is no general consensus on the spelling of sounds that don't exist in Italian, so people use their judgement and there is some variation. His dialetto has a lot of German sounds, so they tend to use German umlauts when trying to spell certain dialetto words (which is probably not the standard way they spelled those words way back when, but gets the job done), because they don't really know how else to represent those sounds nowadays.

I'm not sure why non-Italians who don't speak dialetto seem to like arguing this; if all the Italians who have told me that they don't know how to spell some dialetto words are just really ignorant and were mistaken in telling me that there isn't a standard spelling for some things, then I'd love to see some proof so I can change my mind. I'd even just like to see an Italian who speaks dialetto say, "You don't know what you're talking about, I write in dialetto all the time, everyone knows how to spell all the words just like with Italian." Then I would happily defer. But a non-Italian saying "I'm pretty sure it's this way..." or "there must be some standard..." or "it was written 4,000 years ago so there once were rules" doesn't mean anything if people nowadays only learn dialetto as a spoken language.

[rdearman]

I realize you were exaggerating for effect, but 4000 years ago was the 19th Century BC and the significant things happening were the Early Bronze Age in Greece and the Fall of last Sumerian dynasty. So if there was written dialetto it was probably written in hieroglyphs. A million years ago our ancestors numbered fewer than 20,000. By comparison, some 25,000 gorillas and 21,000 chimps were concentrated in Africa alone. So a million years ago, we were essentially an endangered species and while some of these people might have spoken an Italian Dialetto... I am doubtful.