L2 Language Pairs like French/Spanish

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Re: L2 Language Pairs like French/Spanish

Postby Lawyer&Mom » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:09 pm

zenmonkey wrote:
So in France the L2 Language Pairs, in practice, are German/Spanish/English (dominant), Greek/Latin (the cool kids take Greek), and eventually Spanish (dominant)/Italian ...



So *way* back in the day when American high schools offered Latin *and* Greek, you took both. My quite elderly high school Latin teacher told us about how he used to carry his Latin flash cards in his left pocket and his Greek flash cards in his right pocket... Today there are only a handful of public schools that offer Greek at all. (Although both Greek and Latin are having a bit of a renaissance with homeschoolers seeking a “classical” education.)
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Re: L2 Language Pairs like French/Spanish

Postby Cavesa » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:43 pm

languist wrote:I'm a native English speaker so my choices at school were the typical French/Spanish/German trio, but being in Ireland, my sister (at a different school) had to choose between Irish and Spanish. Most of the Czechs and Slovaks I know (aged 20-40) talk about picking between either German or English (with some mention of Russian; at 40+, everyone seems to know some Russian) - but maybe Cavesa can tell you more about that! And indeed, I teach a few Korean kids and they have complained about being forced to pick up either Chinese or Japanese at school. :D


This is not exact. It was not far from reality in some ways 20 years ago. But it is not true these days.

Number one is unfortunately English, whether you want it or not. The government has been pushing it into schools at the expense of German or anything else a lot and it is a huge problem in the border regions. Very few children get the opportunity to start with German or French first and English second (that was my path and I will never stop being grateful for it).They probably want to keep people from migrating en masse for better jobs (=the same job, the same prices, four times the salary) to the rest of the EU. The regions at the borders could really do with better German teaching in general, English is not helping them out of their poverty. They are usually not scientists, their international business is just with the neighbours, and almost nobody but the neighbours visits those regions.

Number 2 is German, for obvious reasons. Everything else is fighting for the third place.

The third place: French is still winning in this lower league, but may soon be overtaken by Spanish. It is getting more popular and the low quality of French teaching plays a part too. It is not rare to see something like in my sister's school, where the kids learning Spanish are already making noticeable progress, while the French learning ones still don't know what is going on, because of a much worse teacher. (no, not because "French is such a hard language", and definitely not because of prosody, as some people suggested recently). A really bad French teacher is likely to get the job due to low competition, while an equally bad English or German one would definitely not get it. The good Spanish ones seem to be numerous enough to cover the small demand. When it grows, I don't know whether Spanish will be like English or German, or like French.

Russian is competing for the third place too. It is not true that people over 40 speak it. They were forced to sit in the class and pass an exam during the communism, they often even had native teachers (usually the wives of the officers of the occupying army, with little teaching skills), but not knowing the language was seen as actually a quality of character, the people really wanting to learn it were mostly the collaborants. Even now, many older people will simply refuse to speak it, even when they would be able to. A part of the younger generation is rediscovering Russian because of the rich businessmen and the tourists, and there are the heritage speakers, those are the reasons for its rising popularity. It will take a few more decades, before Russian loses any political meanings, and we'll all be able to choose it for the best reasons, like Lukyanenko's scifi books, the classical literature, visits of the famous arts museums in Russia, or love for the food.

Completely underestimated are: Polish (an important neighbour), Italian and Croatian (people going there every year for decades would profit from those much more than from English), and other "smaller" languages of the EU.

It is really sad that the language choices are affected primarily by the offer in school (=by the government's unfortunate choice to push English forward too much), then by the myths ("French is such a hard language" or "I can't see how Italian could be practical"), only then by money, and lastly by personal interest.
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Re: L2 Language Pairs like French/Spanish

Postby IronMike » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:12 pm

Oh my, I guess this highly depends upon how old you are! My mom growing up and going to school in PA (mid 1960s) had Latin, Italian, German and Spanish to choose from. Fast forward 20 years and in 8th grade in TX, if you were an A student, you could take Spanish 1. Then in high school, you could pick from Spanish, French and German. That's it.

My daughter is a sophomore in high school now here in MA (near Boston) and her choices were Latin, German, French, Spanish, Italian, but a couple of them only start level 1 every other year. For example, she couldn't sign up for Spanish (her #1) when we got here last year; she had the choice of German or Latin.

We've been stationed in various U.S. states where high schools (and some junior highs) offered languages as uncommon* as Mandarin, Russian and ASL.

*uncommon: meaning, not usually seen in most public high schools in the U.S.
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Re: L2 Language Pairs like French/Spanish

Postby kanewai » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:10 pm

Michigan, small town, mid-80s: the main L2 pair was also Spanish/French, with almost twice as many people taking Spanish. Partly, I think it was seen as more fun. They'd sing songs, have fiestas, and take field trips. Far behind were Latin and German. There was always talk of trying to find a Japanese teacher, because everyone knew that Japanese was going to be the language of the future.

Honolulu, present day: The big choice is Chinese/Japanese. I looked at the public schools curriculum, and Chinese is the only language with AP classes (for non Americans: AP are basically college-level courses taught in high schools). Korean and Spanish are far behind. It's hard to figure where Hawaiian fits in the mix, since it's officially a second-language here rather than a foreign language.
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Re: L2 Language Pairs like French/Spanish

Postby Cenwalh » Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:17 pm

My choices in England were French, German, Spanish (all reasonable enough), Latin, and Ancient Greek... I detested Latin so went for the first two. Sometimes I see things related to Latin in other languages and it makes me think that maybe I should have stuck with it
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Re: L2 Language Pairs like French/Spanish

Postby Daniel N. » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:05 pm

Cavesa wrote:Completely underestimated are: Polish (an important neighbour), Italian and Croatian (people going there every year for decades would profit from those much more than from English), and other "smaller" languages of the EU.

Some Czechs who have been visiting Croatia for years claim the language is so similar that they basically picked up many words over years more or less effortlessy, and the grammar is very similar in amy case. I don't know if it really works like that, but it seems possible.
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Re: L2 Language Pairs like French/Spanish

Postby Cavesa » Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:21 am

Daniel N. wrote:
Cavesa wrote:Completely underestimated are: Polish (an important neighbour), Italian and Croatian (people going there every year for decades would profit from those much more than from English), and other "smaller" languages of the EU.

Some Czechs who have been visiting Croatia for years claim the language is so similar that they basically picked up many words over years more or less effortlessy, and the grammar is very similar in amy case. I don't know if it really works like that, but it seems possible.


It is definitely true to some extent (the situations requiring very little actual knowledge of any language at all, or when you have enough time and patience and don't mind the complications). But anything a bit more complex will be too risky (like the more important situations, dealing with police or the healthcare workers, and so on).

I also find it really sad, that the czechs are not really interested in many commonly visited countries at all. Majority doesn't know anything at all and believes even complete nonsense even about Croatia, despite having been there twenty times. Not knowing the language is an important factor in this.

I've just returned from a holiday to the Alpes. With lots of people I've known for many years. They've been going to France every year (some years twice) for twenty or twenty five years, complaining about the French natives not speaking English enough every time. They should have learnt French instead (it would be easier and faster), or at least speak better English, if they want the locals to use it with them (really, learning as bad French as their English would take a few weeks, there is no logic :-D ). I can't understand this stupid behaviour (coming from often rather intelligent and educated people)and completely misplaced patriotism or whatever that is.

And France is a rich country. Croatia is not viewed as such, and that's why czechs don't respect it enough to learn the language properly. Given the fact that half the Czech Republic moves there in the summer, one would expect basic Croatian courses being more common in the language schools (it should be more common than Portuguese at least, perhaps even than Italian), and more than one coursebook in the bookstores.

kanewai wrote:Honolulu, present day: The big choice is Chinese/Japanese. I looked at the public schools curriculum, and Chinese is the only language with AP classes (for non Americans: AP are basically college-level courses taught in high schools). Korean and Spanish are far behind. It's hard to figure where Hawaiian fits in the mix, since it's officially a second-language here rather than a foreign language.


thanks for the note for the non-americans. but still: what level are the students in normal or ap classes supposed to reach in those languages? and are they supposed to be just as successful at learning Mandarin as if they were learning Spanish? If so, it is certainly fascinating, as it would be a great example of how the difficulty of a language can be much less important than other factors.
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Re: L2 Language Pairs like French/Spanish

Postby golyplot » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:56 am

I suspect that AP Mandarin is mostly taken by people for whom it is a heritage language.

It's not quite the same thing, but the average score on the Chinese SAT subject exam is 760. (SATs are graded on a scale from 200 to 800). This means nearly everyone who takes the Chinese SAT scores near perfectly on it, so it is obviously selecting for people who are already fluent at the language and just want some easy points.
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Re: L2 Language Pairs like French/Spanish

Postby Adrianslont » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:44 am

kanewai wrote:Honolulu, present day: The big choice is Chinese/Japanese. I looked at the public schools curriculum, and Chinese is the only language with AP classes (for non Americans: AP are basically college-level courses taught in high schools).

Cavesa thanked you for explaining AP classes and I welcome your brief explanation, too. I’ve been wondering what AP is for a couple of years. There has never been enough context to figure that out (other than they are high school classes).

We forum members live in a variety of countries and it’s really nice when people take care to briefly explain the context and unique terminology of their country’s education systems and don’t just assume that everyone understands the education system of country x.

Using general terms that work across borders is good, too.

On a related note I’ve been frustrated by some forum members’ reference to “summer” eg “I am on target to finish Assimil New Uzbek with Ease by the start of summer”. It’s almost as if we all live in the same hemisphere! Is that approximately three months from now or nine months from now? The people who talk in these terms always seem to experience summer when I am experiencing winter. And I study a language where 99%+ of its speakers experience neither summer nor winter.

A more international view of the world would be great on a forum like this.

Got that off my chest!

My description of languages in schools in my part of the world is offered elsewhere in this thread.
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Re: L2 Language Pairs like French/Spanish

Postby golyplot » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:42 pm

What do you suggest saying instead of "this summer"? I can't think of any suitable replacements. You can't just say "This August" or whatever, because that conveys an unintended and possibly inaccurate level of precision.
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