Help with transliteration of Central (Polish) Yiddish

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squee333
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Help with transliteration of Central (Polish) Yiddish

Postby squee333 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:19 pm

Which would work best for the transliterations of the names of letters ב, בֿ, ה, פּ, פֿ, ר?

Bies, Vies, Hie, Pie, Fie, Riesh
Bys, Vys, Hy, Py, Fy, Rysh
Beis, Veis, Hei, Pei, Fei, Reish

Keep in mind that I'm talking about Central (Polish) Yiddish, so the vowel sound is [aj], not [ej]. This can be extended to any word that has that vowel.
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Re: Help with transliteration of Central (Polish) Yiddish

Postby AML » Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:40 pm

squee333 wrote:Which would work best for the transliterations of the names of letters ב, בֿ, ה, פּ, פֿ, ר?

Bies, Vies, Hie, Pie, Fie, Riesh
Bys, Vys, Hy, Py, Fy, Rysh
Beis, Veis, Hei, Pei, Fei, Reish

Keep in mind that I'm talking about Central (Polish) Yiddish, so the vowel sound is [aj], not [ej]. This can be extended to any word that has that vowel.



I believe what you're looking for is listed here in the seventh column, which looks correct to me.
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Re: Help with transliteration of Central (Polish) Yiddish

Postby squee333 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:04 pm

AML wrote:
squee333 wrote:Which would work best for the transliterations of the names of letters ב, בֿ, ה, פּ, פֿ, ר?

Bies, Vies, Hie, Pie, Fie, Riesh
Bys, Vys, Hy, Py, Fy, Rysh
Beis, Veis, Hei, Pei, Fei, Reish

Keep in mind that I'm talking about Central (Polish) Yiddish, so the vowel sound is [aj], not [ej]. This can be extended to any word that has that vowel.



I believe what you're looking for is listed here in the seventh column, which looks correct to me.

That's for YIVO Yiddish, where the vowel sound is [ej] (close to English "long a"). I'm talking about Central (Polish) Yiddish, where the sound is [aj] (close to English "long i"). Can you please comment on (at least one of) the lists I've provided?
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Re: Help with transliteration of Central (Polish) Yiddish

Postby Deinonysus » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:12 pm

squee333 wrote:
AML wrote:
squee333 wrote:Which would work best for the transliterations of the names of letters ב, בֿ, ה, פּ, פֿ, ר?

Bies, Vies, Hie, Pie, Fie, Riesh
Bys, Vys, Hy, Py, Fy, Rysh
Beis, Veis, Hei, Pei, Fei, Reish

Keep in mind that I'm talking about Central (Polish) Yiddish, so the vowel sound is [aj], not [ej]. This can be extended to any word that has that vowel.



I believe what you're looking for is listed here in the seventh column, which looks correct to me.

That's for YIVO Yiddish, where the vowel sound is [ej] (close to English "long a"). I'm talking about Central (Polish) Yiddish, where the sound is [aj] (close to English "long i"). Can you please comment on (at least one of) the lists I've provided?

Right below that chart, there's another one that lists LCAAJ equivalents for יי, ו, and ײַ in the Litvish, Poylish, and Ukrainish dialects of Eastern Yiddish. You should be able to process the sound changes from Litvish to Poylish.

Unfortunately I only have passing knowledge of Yiddish and have no idea which romanization system would be the most appropriate for the Poylish dialect.
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Re: Help with transliteration of Central (Polish) Yiddish

Postby squee333 » Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:54 pm

Deinonysus wrote:
squee333 wrote:
AML wrote:
squee333 wrote:Which would work best for the transliterations of the names of letters ב, בֿ, ה, פּ, פֿ, ר?

Bies, Vies, Hie, Pie, Fie, Riesh
Bys, Vys, Hy, Py, Fy, Rysh
Beis, Veis, Hei, Pei, Fei, Reish

Keep in mind that I'm talking about Central (Polish) Yiddish, so the vowel sound is [aj], not [ej]. This can be extended to any word that has that vowel.



I believe what you're looking for is listed here in the seventh column, which looks correct to me.

That's for YIVO Yiddish, where the vowel sound is [ej] (close to English "long a"). I'm talking about Central (Polish) Yiddish, where the sound is [aj] (close to English "long i"). Can you please comment on (at least one of) the lists I've provided?

Right below that chart, there's another one that lists LCAAJ equivalents for יי, ו, and ײַ in the Litvish, Poylish, and Ukrainish dialects of Eastern Yiddish. You should be able to process the sound changes from Litvish to Poylish.

Unfortunately I only have passing knowledge of Yiddish and have no idea which romanization system would be the most appropriate for the Poylish dialect.

Well, the sound is IPA [aj], so it would be "ie" in lie, "y" in sky, or "ei" in height. I also have this thing where I can't use a spelling of a Hebrew/Yiddish letter name unless I've seen someone else use it first. I can only apply that so far to Hie, Pie, Riesh, Hy, Beis, Veis, Hei, Pei, Fei, and Reish. If you use the other spellings while discussing them, I will feel comfortable using them elsewhere.
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Re: Help with transliteration of Central (Polish) Yiddish

Postby Deinonysus » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:35 am

squee333 wrote:Well, the sound is IPA [aj], so it would be "ie" in lie, "y" in sky, or "ei" in height. I also have this thing where I can't use a spelling of a Hebrew/Yiddish letter name unless I've seen someone else use it first. I can only apply that so far to Hie, Pie, Riesh, Hy, Beis, Veis, Hei, Pei, Fei, and Reish. If you use the other spellings while discussing them, I will feel able to use them elsewhere.

A good romanization system should be unambiguous and international. I don't like <ie>, <y>, or <ei> for /aj/ because they're English specific and even then they can very greatly based on context.

I think you're overthinking it. There's no need to reinvent the wheel here when you can just apply the sound changes to an established romanization system. For example, /aj/ is spelled <ay> in YIVO, so <beys> would become <bays>.
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Re: Help with transliteration of Central (Polish) Yiddish

Postby squee333 » Mon Mar 11, 2019 12:44 am

Deinonysus wrote:
squee333 wrote:Well, the sound is IPA [aj], so it would be "ie" in lie, "y" in sky, or "ei" in height. I also have this thing where I can't use a spelling of a Hebrew/Yiddish letter name unless I've seen someone else use it first. I can only apply that so far to Hie, Pie, Riesh, Hy, Beis, Veis, Hei, Pei, Fei, and Reish. If you use the other spellings while discussing them, I will feel able to use them elsewhere.

A good romanization system should be unambiguous and international. I don't like <ie>, <y>, or <ei> for /aj/ because they're English specific and even then they can very greatly based on context.

I think you're overthinking it. There's no need to reinvent the wheel here when you can just apply the sound changes to an established romanization system. For example, /aj/ is spelled <ay> in YIVO, so <beys> would become <bays>.

<ay> doesn't work for English, though.

I get what you're saying about overthinking it and reinventing the wheel, but I'd still like to see someone else use those spellings before I do.
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Re: Help with transliteration of Central (Polish) Yiddish

Postby Deinonysus » Mon Mar 11, 2019 1:10 am

squee333 wrote:
Deinonysus wrote:A good romanization system should be unambiguous and international. I don't like <ie>, <y>, or <ei> for /aj/ because they're English specific and even then they can very greatly based on context.

I think you're overthinking it. There's no need to reinvent the wheel here when you can just apply the sound changes to an established romanization system. For example, /aj/ is spelled <ay> in YIVO, so <beys> would become <bays>.

<ay> doesn't work for English, though.

I get what you're saying about overthinking it and reinventing the wheel, but I'd still like to see someone else use those spellings before I do.

TBH, there's nothing that would consistently and unambiguously work for /aj/ in English. The best international options are <ai>, <ay>, or <aj> which would all cause problems for English speakers.

I don't think there's anyone on this forum who actually speaks Yiddish so this isn't the place to see what people are actively using to romanize specific dialects. You might have better luck on http://www.reddit.com/r/Yiddish.
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Re: Help with transliteration of Central (Polish) Yiddish

Postby aokoye » Mon Mar 11, 2019 2:15 am

squee333 wrote:
Deinonysus wrote:
squee333 wrote:
AML wrote:
squee333 wrote:Which would work best for the transliterations of the names of letters ב, בֿ, ה, פּ, פֿ, ר?

Bies, Vies, Hie, Pie, Fie, Riesh
Bys, Vys, Hy, Py, Fy, Rysh
Beis, Veis, Hei, Pei, Fei, Reish

Keep in mind that I'm talking about Central (Polish) Yiddish, so the vowel sound is [aj], not [ej]. This can be extended to any word that has that vowel.



I believe what you're looking for is listed here in the seventh column, which looks correct to me.

That's for YIVO Yiddish, where the vowel sound is [ej] (close to English "long a"). I'm talking about Central (Polish) Yiddish, where the sound is [aj] (close to English "long i"). Can you please comment on (at least one of) the lists I've provided?

Right below that chart, there's another one that lists LCAAJ equivalents for יי, ו, and ײַ in the Litvish, Poylish, and Ukrainish dialects of Eastern Yiddish. You should be able to process the sound changes from Litvish to Poylish.

Unfortunately I only have passing knowledge of Yiddish and have no idea which romanization system would be the most appropriate for the Poylish dialect.

Well, the sound is IPA [aj], so it would be "ie" in lie, "y" in sky, or "ei" in height. I also have this thing where I can't use a spelling of a Hebrew/Yiddish letter name unless I've seen someone else use it first. I can only apply that so far to Hie, Pie, Riesh, Hy, Beis, Veis, Hei, Pei, Fei, and Reish. If you use the other spellings while discussing them, I will feel comfortable using them elsewhere.


Just a drive by comment, though I'm somewhat interested in what you're doing. The IPA for the diphthong is [aɪ] (your "sky" example would be [skaɪ]). The chart on the wiki page that mentions aj specifically stated that it was a romanization, not IPA.

That said I'm curious as to why you can't use spellings without seeing someone use them first. Also why do you need the spellings of letters? Either way given the number of transliterations of Hebrew there are, I think the most success you'll have outside of finding a Yiddish textbook for Polish speakers, would be to find a Hebrew textbook for Polish speakers.
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Re: Help with transliteration of Central (Polish) Yiddish

Postby squee333 » Tue Mar 19, 2019 2:49 am

Deinonysus, which can you read more comfortably as /aj/ in names like beis/bais, pei/pai, and reish/raish: <ai> or <ei> (which you described as English-specific, but seems more German-specific to me)?
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