Language learning in UK schools down - again

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eido
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Re: Language learning in UK schools down - again

Postby eido » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:52 pm

dampingwire wrote:I'm a little surprised that there is anywhere where you don't specialise much before heading off to university: that must be a steep learning curve once you suddenly have to up your game in one subject all in one go ...

In my opinion, my American high school education wasn't that specialized. It was hard for me at the time, but if I had to redo it with the wisdom I have now, I'd say, "Hey, this isn't so bad..."

At my school, we had to take 4 years of English, 3 years of math, 3 years of history, etc. If you wanted to look good for a specific college, you could take more courses specific to the major or school you wanted to apply for. But we didn't have a wide range of classes to select from. If you wanted to be an English major, you had a select few electives to pair up with your main, required English classes at the secondary level, like Creative Writing I and II. Some of those electives never got signed up for, so you'd be out of luck if you wanted to bolster your curriculum in that case.

The amount of years a subject was required was determined by the state. So the 3 years of math was state mandated. It could be any level of math, I believe, just as long as you kept progressing and didn't keep repeating the course. So that meant summer school in a lot of cases for kids who slacked off or just struggled. But most colleges require high school study of math up to Algebra II, which at my school came after Geometry, which came after Algebra I, and after Pre-Algebra...

And like a college, you had a certain amount of elective requirements to fill. At my school, which was known for being academically strong, it was easy to graduate with more credits in the elective category and perhaps in total than necessary because a lot of kids studied hard and wanted to study.

They messed with how many periods we had in a day halfway through my high school career, switching from seven to eight, for reasons I forget. Perhaps to give us more time to study? To fix the lunch schedule? I don't remember.

But our periods never exceeded more than eight per day. In senior year you had to be signed up for at least six classes, but some who wanted to take Advanced Placement, do internships, or study at a community college concurrently studied for all eight, and I remember one student who was considered particularly bright who might've convinced the registrar and principal that he should be taking ten classes at once. But again, I don't remember in detail.

The point here is there was no guidance in what to pick, usually. Just requirements that had to be met.

It was possible to be more "specialized" by picking one elective and going through all the levels offered, but it's nothing like what I'm about to describe...

At the high school my bus runs out of now, they work on a "major" system. That's the best way to describe it. You pick a fine arts major, or a STEM major, and stick with it throughout high school. Most kids, I've heard, pick STEM. But it's not for reasons of interest - rather it's just because everyone else is doing it.

There's a lot of variance in public high schools within my local district, and even more if you count the private or charter schools.
Last edited by eido on Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Language learning in UK schools down - again

Postby Cavesa » Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:55 pm

dampingwire wrote:
Cavesa wrote:Hmm, that is interesting. If the remaining subjects are taught on a much higher level, it probably makes some sense. The system of having 12 subjects till the end of the HS definitely has some disadvantages too (I can easily name a few subjects I would have dropped, especially in the last year during preparation for my university entrance exams). But I wonder, whether it doesn't tempt people too much to choose three or four easier subjects and in general doesn't lessen the education of the population as a whole.


For many years the UK government has worried that people specialise too early, but very little has changed. In my day, you covered a broad range of subjects (maybe 12 or more) from the ages of 11 until about 15. Then from 15 to 16 you concentrated on 9 or 10 and then took your exams (O-levels, back then, GCSE now). Then you could leave school. If you carried on you continued to take 3 subjects to a higher level. After that you could continue to university.

That's how it was (more or less for my older two). My youngest has now made the transition to only studying the 10 GCSE subjects one year early (although it seems most schools are doing that now). So he gets three years to cover 10 subjects. (Although almost everyone else does too). So now they're specialising even earlier! (He's happy: he likes his 10 subjects and he got to drop a bunch he had no interest in).

I'm a little surprised that there is anywhere where you don't specialise much before heading off to university: that must be a steep learning curve once you suddenly have to up your game in one subject all in one go ...


No, on the majority of high schools (the ones meant to lead to further education, not the ones to teach a craft), you have 12 or so (I think I may have forgotten one or two, and also the number can vary slightly between schools due to different curricula) until you're 19. At 19, you go to university. Unlike in the anglophone countries, you sign up to study one field and have subjects related to it, not a few majors, minors, and so on.

The advantage is getting a much better general education in my opinion. Actually, some of my negative experience with foreigners could be explained by them having dropped a few subjects too early (like geography or history for example). It could explain the bad reputation of the anglophone pre-university education (the students going for an exchange during high school or moving to the country usually say it's much easier there). We also don't have many flat earthers. :-D It is a differently paced system, which I guess gets balanced out later, at the university. At that point, you start winning, because our universities are poor and bad and too obsessed with themselves.

The disadvantage is having to put time into stuff you are not interested in for a very long time. And I was really annoyed to waste time on humanities, physical education, or geography in my last year instead of focusing fully on the subjects important for me and my following studies. Also, it would have been a much more enjoyable time at high school, had I been allowed to get rid of the subjects with teachers I disliked this way. I would have kept history anyways, despite "not needing it", thanks to a great teacher. Yes, learning so many subjects is not easy. But the finals exams (called Maturita) include just four, and they have been recently dumbed down (unintentionally. and so much that the students from the harder and better schools feel undervalued and disrespected), and there are so many places at universities, that even bad grades and knowledge are not important. It is sad, but it is true. You may barely pass most of your subjects and still get accepted somewhere and get an easier degree, which will be taken as just as valid as the hard ones. On one hand, it is extremely unfair to the better students. But the advantage is getting a second chance, if you decide to improve late.

But I don't get one thing. You have a stable system with some advantages and disadvantages. Not having to learn a foreign language is one of the default parts of it, just like not having to learn any other subject for too long. So, isn't the type of criticism like this newspaper article a bit pointless? If general education was one of the main goals of your high schools, the criticism of the foreign languages not being a part of it would be completely valid. But since your high schools are meant as a specific preparation for one's individual studies at the university, complaining the individual students choose any of the offered subjects too little (whether it is French or chemistry or anything else) makes little sense. You are encouraging them to do this, so why criticise them for acting upon it.

The only way to win this battle is through positive "marketing" of the languages, in my opinion. There would need to be lots of it.

EDIT:quotes
Last edited by Cavesa on Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:37 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Language learning in UK schools down - again

Postby reineke » Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:29 pm

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Last edited by reineke on Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Language learning in UK schools down - again

Postby stelingo » Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:43 pm

gsbod wrote:
Cavesa wrote:If people were given the option to drop any other difficult subject, like physics, at the age of 16, many would do so. Would any country let a large part of the population drop physics at the age of 16, just because most people won't need majority of the curriculum after the graduation and because they fear bad grades?


Actually, this is exactly how the UK education system works. After the age of 16, you go down to three or four subjects, so many people drop physics (and other sciences, maths, languages and so on).


And just to clarify pupils in the UK can drop subjects from Year 10 (14-15 years old) when they start studying their GCSE courses which last 2 years. These culminate in the GCSE exams at age 16. As the new syllabuses are more demanding both in terms of material covered and in difficulty, there is now a trend in many schools of having pupils study fewer subjects. This, along with the historical perception that languages are difficult, is contributing to the decline of language study. Added to this is the pressure of league tables and regular 3-4 year OFSTED (government) inspections, in which school exam results are compared against each other, and schools can go into 'special measures' (= improve quick or we sack the headteacher and many of the teaching staff). As a consequence many schools steer pupils into 'easier' subjects. Fewer pupils studying studying languages at GCSE means there are fewer opportunities to study them at A level (exams taken by 18 year olds to get into university.) For example in the town where I live the major 16-18 college with several campuses and several thousands students stopped offering language courses altogether about 3 years ago. And this situation has in turn led to the closure of many language departments at universities. I also think Brexit is contributing to this decline.
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Re: Language learning in UK schools down - again

Postby stelingo » Thu Feb 28, 2019 8:57 pm

Cavesa wrote:
But I don't get one thing. You have a stable system with some advantages and disadvantages. Not having to learn a foreign language is one of the default parts of it, just like not having to learn any other subject for too long. So, isn't the type of criticism like this newspaper article a bit pointless? If general education was one of the main goals of your high schools, the criticism of the foreign languages not being a part of it would be completely valid. But since your high schools are meant as a specific preparation for one's individual studies at the university, complaining the individual students choose any of the offered subjects too little (whether it is French or chemistry or anything else) makes little sense. You are encouraging them to do this, so why criticise them for acting upon it.
EDIT:quotes


The media isn't criticizing the individual students who are dropping languages. They are highlighting a consequence of the way the educational system is set up in England. Most pupils attend comprehensive school for ages 11-16. The aim is indeed to provide a general education, not to directly prepare them for university. This happens at 6th form colleges (age 16-18). Certain schools are for 11-18 year olds, but pupils won't necessarily stay once they have completed their GCSEs at 16. It depends on their interests and ambitions.
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Re: Language learning in UK schools down - again

Postby Cavesa » Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:15 pm

Reineke's video makes me feel that I was a weird kid :-D

Thanks for the clarification, Stelingo. If the schools are also making the subjects more worth it and more detailed, it makes sense to have just a few of them. I still think there are some disadvantages (there are disadvantages to everything) but I can clearly see the value.

The system would probably work just fine, if only the schools weren't pushing the students to the easier stuff (because of those tests and pressure on them that you describe). A population with just a small minority with background in the harder stuff is not a good goal. And isn't it weird, that the schools are basically motivated to give as good grades as possible? :-D

The only way to change the decline with so strong reasons behind it would be convincing the students and their parents to pay for extra classes outside of school, without the grades. No danger, still some results. Or finally promote self-teaching as a normal way to study something. This could actually be a huge opportunity. The good old "never let the school interfere with your education" quote.

But I'd say the same newspaper article, in your context, could be written about other subjects too. Imagine. "Too few teens learning physics. Employers fear not having enough people with a bit of scientific background and thinking. Universities pressured into opening more management degrees, while the science deparments don't grow and professors fear the future." :-D
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Re: Language learning in UK schools down - again

Postby stelingo » Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:23 pm

Cavesa wrote:
The system would probably work just fine, if only the schools weren't pushing the students to the easier stuff (because of those tests and pressure on them that you describe). A population with just a small minority with background in the harder stuff is not a good goal. And isn't it weird, that the schools are basically motivated to give as good grades as possible? :-D


Teachers don't grade the GCSE exams of their own students. External exam boards set and mark the exams, so teachers don't have any way of influencing this directly, beyond motivating and teaching in the classroom. In fact one of the reasons they changed the exam syllabuses 3 years ago, was that a big element used to be coursework, which class teachers marked. The government considered them to be too lenient, and the system was indeed open to abuse.
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Re: Language learning in UK schools down - again

Postby Flickserve » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:46 pm

And who brought that coursework component into the exams? It was the government itself trying to improve grades and score political brownie points. Coursework is graded by the examination authority in a random sample from each school as a check on validity of teachers' assessments so there really isn't much point on trying to blame teachers.

I have a feeling that the massive rise in university fees and massive rise in university population has something to do with it as well. People's potential expenses are higher after graduation so you better get your best grades at school and need to be maximise the system to get the highest score. If you struggle with languages at secondary school like I did, you look to drop it.

However, I also come from the days when a language at GCSE was compulsory for entry to university. Hence, my schoolboy French ability. This requirement is no longer in place. If you want to encourage more take up and pool of students taking a language, then make it a requirement of university admission or change the whole exam system like the international baccalaureate. The later this is left, the danger you have of your pool of teachers being too small.

There's actually a real life example in Malaysia. In a very simplified description, they switched the school system to almost wholly bahasa Malay. Before, it had been a mixture of Malay and English. As a result, English ability got lower and lower. Many many years later, the government woke up to the decline in English standards (decreasing international business competitiveness) and tried to change the secondary school education to use English to teach science subjects and some others. It completely failed because the new generation of teachers didn't have the ability to use English to teach and the students didn't have the necessary English skills to learn in English. After about three years or so, they switched the teaching back to Malay.
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Re: Language learning in UK schools down - again

Postby cpnlsn88 » Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:12 pm

I think the UK needs a profound rethink of language education in order to turn the situation around.

Firstly we massively overvalue what language education can achieve. Certainly we don't produce near native speakers at 16 or even 18 or even after 4 years of University.

Formal education offers nowhere near enough input to come to any where near C1 or C2. Lower levels are however in reach if we would be more realistic. Lots of pleasurable input could lead to marked improvement for those interested.

Much harder for the UK because of the prevalence of English internationally. School level education can help to introduce languages and introduce to touristic usage (nothing wrong with that), but to go a lot further requires huge levels of input that are not feasible or appropriate for most people. The biggest danger is to leave young people in compulsory education with negative feelings about languages (same for other subjects - sports teaching that puts you off any form of sport; literature study that puts you off reading for life and so on).

I think (for the UK at any rate) formal education should really lower its sights but I think language learning in general is more important so that those wanting to go further can access comprehensible input to improve.

I think there should be some awareness of different scripts and some awareness of languages spoken in the locality and indigenous to the UK (notably Welsh, Punjabi, Urdu etc), significant local dialects and languages. The key is it should be interesting and enjoyable for the students and reasonable competency in the subject should be easily attainable by a majority of the students taking the subject.

Without big rethinking of the offer to students there will be continued decline. This is very sad and as well as limiting the language reach of people in the UK also has a sad effect of making us a little more insular and closed off to other cultures and ultimately reliant on other people speaking our language which in the long run is not a good idea.

If we do not make changes we will continue a steady decline and people regularly reporting it as something we must do something about.
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Re: Language learning in UK schools down - again

Postby DaveAgain » Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:25 pm

cpnlsn88 wrote:Without big rethinking of the offer to students there will be continued decline.
Spanish study in on a long term upward trend. We may see similar trends emerge for other languages.
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