Working memory and language learning

[NoManches]

Way back in August of of 2016 I started this thread, which is very relevant to this post:
https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... prehension

I got some really good advice from it and sort of forgot about this entire thread until a few days ago. Recently, I was listening to a podcast that I consider "very easy listening". In my opinion, the speakers are extremely clear, speak pretty slowly, and have neutral accents. The only time I ever have a problem with this podcast is when they use a word or phrase that I've never heard of. I'd consider my comprehension for this podcast to be 99%, and I typically listen to it while at work because it doesn't take a lot of effort to understand everything on my part.

Anyway, there is a section in this podcast where the host says a sentence in Spanish, and you have to repeat the sentence and try to match his or her pronunciation, accent, etc. Typically, these sentences use vocabulary or phrases that were just taught in the podcast...so probably not in the learners active vocabulary...just yet. The other day I was listening and found it extremely hard to repeat the sentences. I heard the sentence. I understood the sentence. But when it came time to repeat it I could only spit out the beginning of the sentence and couldn't finish it because I had already forgotten the end.

Some notes:

-This only seems to be the case with longer sentences.
-This seems te be the case when a sentence has a phrase very new to me that isn't yet part of my so called "active vocabulary".
-I can transcribe the sentence with absolutely no difficulty, and after reading it a few times can repeat it after hearing the audio (without looking at the transcription).
-I noticed that on the YouTube version of this audio, the speakers post the sentence in the video so you can read it after hearing the speakers example sentence. Obviously this feature isn't offered in the audio only version.

Is it reasonable to expect somebody to recite these sentences after one listen, without reading the written version of the example sentence (if you were listening to it as a podcast)?

Here is an example of one of the podcasts in question:

https://youtu.be/1UNII_JL2Qo?t=447

If you speak Spanish or are learning Spanish, would you mind watching a portion of this video and telling me if you found some of the longer sentences difficult as well? I thought that I had reached a point where my working memory in Spanish was a whole lot better, but maybe I was wrong. I feel like if I had heard the same sentence in English I would have no problem reciting it.

Has anybody else done anything to work on improving their working memory, or is it only a question of getting better with the language. Like many of my posts, I'm hoping this will generate some discussion even though I haven't asked many specific questions.

[Chupito]

If you speak Spanish or are learning Spanish, would you mind watching a portion of this video and telling me if you found some of the longer sentences difficult as well?

I tried without looking, to replicate your audio only conditions, and I didn't listen to the whole video. Only to the sentences. I can't repeat them. The video is labelled as B2 and I am in the A levels, so perhaps my answer isn't very relevant though.

As for my memory in general, it is terrible. Sometimes I have to take my phone out to look at the time twice in a row because I have already forgotten what time it is by the time I have put my phone back in my purse.

[NoManches]

If you speak Spanish or are learning Spanish, would you mind watching a portion of this video and telling me if you found some of the longer sentences difficult as well?

I tried without looking, to replicate your audio only conditions, and I didn't listen to the whole video. Only to the sentences. I can't repeat them. The video is labelled as B2 and I am in the A levels, so perhaps my answer isn't very relevant though.

As for my memory in general, it is terrible. Sometimes I have to take my phone out to look at the time twice in a row because I have already forgotten what time it is by the time I have put my phone back in my purse.

You will definitely notice as you progress in Spanish that your working memory will increase a whole lot. When I posted my original thread in August of 2016 (the thread I linked at the beginning), my working memory wasn't that great. I soon realized that when you have added words to your vocabulary, and I mean words that you can actively use without any thought, that when you come across those words in the future they are easier to keep in your "working memory". I think that is the reason why I'm so concerned about my working memory right now...since I don't think it should be an issue now. Thanks for taking a stab at it though! If you need a good challenge then this podcast would be great for you (maybe focus on the episodes that don't have a lot of grammar concepts).

As a second thought, maybe the creator of this podcast intended for it to be used in the video format, so that the listeners could see the example sentences. When I first heard this podcast, even with my near 100% comprehension, I panicked when I tried to do the "listen and repeat exercises" and couldn't. I asked myself: Does she really expect me to be able to hear this sentence once and repeat it?

Seeing that they probably made those sentences with the expectation that people would read along, make me feel a little better.

[tommus]

As for my memory in general, it is terrible. Sometimes I have to take my phone out to look at the time twice in a row because I have already forgotten what time it is by the time I have put my phone back in my purse.

I shouldn't comment on this at all because I have no specific expertise related to memory. But I sometimes experience something similar. I think the issue is not that you have forgotten something from memory. I think it is because you didn't actually "enter" it into your memory in the first place. I find that if I pause for a second or two, and somehow consciously "enter" it, and momentarily envision "recalling" the item from memory as if I were about to use it, then it sticks much better. So make sure you "enter" it into your memory. Then you can recall it later.

[javier_getafe]

Hi,

I have been listening the most of the You tube video and I only can give you my opinion as a native spanish (from Madrid).

Primero: Él es español de España. Se entiende perfectamente, y pronuncia despacio cada palabra para que sea entendible para foreigners.

Segundo: Ella no es española, no logro ubicar de donde es el acento que tiene, pero claramente no es española. No obstante, aunque suena raro, su español es bueno y está claro que es totalmente bilingüe.

No te puedo ayudar. Ya sabes, es cuestión de tiempo y práctica. Yo tengo el B2 en inglés y me encuentro en un punto parecido al tuyo. LLeva mucho tiempo y esfuerzo mejorar. Pero claramente el esfuerzo compensa.

[Kraut]

Has anybody else done anything to work on improving their working memory, or is it only a question of getting better with the language. Like many of my posts, I'm hoping this will generate some discussion even though I haven't asked many specific question

s.


Here is what I'm doing to "aprender profundamente".
I translate and back-translate (Lamparello's bi-directional translation) interesting texts that tell a linear story. Then I extract words - one or two per sentence - and try to reconstruct/retell the story aloud.

I'm doing the repeat with the keywords while I'm using my swing stepper
for half an hour.
.........................
This guy (Spanish Unlimited) uses a technique he calls "technica de punto de vista" in which the same text is looked upon from different angles.

https://www.unlimitedspanish.com/wp-con ... -ES-TR.pdf
--------------------------------

[NoManches]

Hi,

I have been listening the most of the You tube video and I only can give you my opinion as a native spanish (from Madrid).

Primero: Él es español de España. Se entiende perfectamente, y pronuncia despacio cada palabra para que sea entendible para foreigners.

Segundo: Ella no es española, no logro ubicar de donde es el acento que tiene, pero claramente no es española. No obstante, aunque suena raro, su español es bueno y está claro que es totalmente bilingüe.

No te puedo ayudar. Ya sabes, es cuestión de tiempo y práctica. Yo tengo el B2 en inglés y me encuentro en un punto parecido al tuyo. LLeva mucho tiempo y esfuerzo mejorar. Pero claramente el esfuerzo compensa.

Gracias por tu respuesta. Dale unos minutos y uno de los administradores del foro te va a corregir porque no has publicado en inglés jaja . Si, tengo un nivel más o menos "B2", pero uno de mis debilidades es la escritura...entonces por favor no me juzgue demasiada....¡pero las correcciones siempre son bienvenidos!

Thanks for your response. Give it a few minutes and one of the forum administrators is going to correct you for not posting in English haha. Yes, I have level more or less "B2", but one of my weaknesses is writing....so please don't judge me too much. But, corrections are always welcome./

¿En serio ella no es española? Tiene un acento muy bueno y como has dicho, es totalmente bilingüe. Tendré que hacer caso y tratar de determinar el origen de su acento. Pero, si no puedes lograr el origin, dudo que lo haga tampoco. Sé que ella habla 4 idiomas, incluyendo francés, y estudió en la universidad de Madrid. Antes, nunca me di cuenta de que no es española, pero ahora que lo mencionas, pienso que puedo distinguir unas cositas que desmienten que es española.

Seriously she isn't Spanish? She as a very good accent and like you've said, she is totally bilingual. I will have to pay attention and try to determine the origin of her accent. But, if you't can't determine where she is from I doubt I will be able to. I know she speaks 4 languages, including French, and she studied in the University of Madrid. Before, I never realized that she isn't Spanish, but now that you mention it, I think I can hear some "little things" that says she isn't Spanish.

[javier_getafe]

¿En serio ella no es española? Tiene un acento muy bueno y como has dicho, es totalmente bilingüe. Tendré que hacer caso y tratar de determinar el origen de su acento. Pero, si no puedes lograr el origin, dudo que lo haga tampoco. Sé que ella habla 4 idiomas, incluyendo francés, y estudió en la universidad de Madrid. Antes, nunca me di cuenta de que no es española, pero ahora que lo mencionas, pienso que puedo distinguir unas cositas que desmienten que es española.

Seriously she isn't Spanish? She as a very good accent and like you've said, she is totally bilingual. I will have to pay attention and try to determine the origin of her accent. But, if you't can't determine where she is from I doubt I will be able to. I know she speaks 4 languages, including French, and she studied in the University of Madrid. Before, I never realized that she isn't Spanish, but now that you mention it, I think I can hear some "little things" that says she isn't Spanish.

Sorry for writting in spanish, but I thought you liked to see some sentences in spanish

I'm afraid that I can not review your sentences in spanish, they are just perfect!

Indeed, she talks a perfect spanish, but I can note that she could be from east of europe almost certain (not sure), this kind of accent is almost impossible to hide for a native.

[Random Review]

I thought she sounded like she might be Russian or something like that, but the name she gives (Martínez) is Hispanic not Slavic. So I'm stumped.

Regarding the question in the OP, it could be a question of cognitive load. In your L1 you know all the words, the pronunciation is effortless and you are aided in your memory by your perfect mastery of the grammar and colloquial idiom. The cognitive load in reproducing a sentence in L2 is much, much larger. It is, however, a very helpful exercise IMO. It's wonderful for ruthlessly pinpointing things you kind of know but haven't totally mastered, but without the possible embarrassment of making mistakes and receiving correction. For example I also tried it without looking and, although I was able to reproduce the first sentence, I noticed that I hesitated before "sino". I do know this grammar, but clearly I haven't totally mastered it yet.

If you aren't finding it challenging, the sentences are too easy to be useful for you.

[reineke]

Her r's are hard and everything she says sounds very "clear" which would point to SE Europe. I think she got the stress wrong in "gratuito".

Idioms are low frequency units that are recalled as "chunks". Working memory relates to the number of items you can consciously hold in your mind. Most people can only hold a handful of independent items in their WM.If those idioms were second nature to you it would be much easier for you to zip and unzip the sentences. Similarly, those idioms are glued together by phonology and grammar. Spaniards love idioms but I don't recall seeing them stapled together in this manner. It could be good practice for you. You can also try capturing whole sentences (while watching TV) and speaking them into your phone. If your pronunciation is decent the voice-to-text app will love you.

To sum up, the most dramatic improvement you can make is by freeing up your resources so that WM doesn't get overwhelmed with input.In other words you should work at improving the underlying processes (grammar, phonology, active recall etc).