Un-cluttering my mind for languages

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Steve
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Un-cluttering my mind for languages

Postby Steve » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:35 pm

I'm going to lead up to my question with a story I will try to keep as brief as possible. I'll try to leave out the musical details except for the mental part of it.

In the past few years, I've started figuring out principles which underlie efficient learning. I've started applying them to a few things as experiments. One of these was learning to do jazz/blues style improvisation on piano. I've been playing piano for about 4 decades now. It's mostly been by ear in a typical pop, rock, and country type of style. Mentally, it has involved me knowing what the chord progression for the song is and knowing what scales and notes work well with those chords, and playing those. I enjoyed it and got reasonably good at it. I've also played bass guitar and guitar (rhythm and lead) with a similar approach. I could improvise reasonably well within a tight mental discipline of knowing what scales and notes would work with what chords. I had tried learning jazz scales in the past but never could do much with them in songs.

Last summer, I decided to apply the new principles of learning I was slowly figuring out. One of these is working on the skill you want to learn rather than mostly learning about the skill. I wanted to be able to take a song and create jazz/blues versions of it on the fly. I researched jazz piano playing and found most tutorials recommended a common approach. This was basically memorizing a number of scales and practicing them in all 12 keys. In addition, it would involve memorizing what chords could be substituted for other chords. This correlates closely with the idea of memorizing grammar tables in language learning. Instead of taking this "grammar based" approach to piano improvisation, I decided to simply practice the skill I wanted to do which was improvising. I'd just sit down at the piano, randomly pick some chords and practice transitions between them. Later I wrote a computer program to generate random progressions which I'd then use as a basis for "songs" that I'd create on the fly. I'd say I average perhaps 20 minutes per day. Some weeks I don't touch the piano. Other weeks, I might play 30 to 45 minutes per day.

Now, to my main observation and question. When improvising like this, my mind is now clear and uncluttered. In the past, my mind would be racing with chords, scales, notes, and what would work with what. Most of what I played on piano, bass, and guitar came out of a strict adherence to particular chords and allowed notes and scales. It was mentally intense for me to play. Now, I just sit down, and chords, scales, and notes just flow. I started mostly in key of C (white keys) and now I find that I'm naturally using all the keys. I'm putting in accidentals, complex chords, and altering chords and scales on the fly without really thinking about it. At times, I have no clue what I'm playing except that I like how it sounds. It's very relaxing and I enjoy it. About the only thing in my mind is the general structure of the chord progression I'm using. I never thought I could do this playing music. I thought it was normal to constantly be thinking about chords, notes, and scales and which were the "correct" ones to use. Now, I give barely a thought to that and I just love the sounds that I am hearing. At one point I analyzed the notes I was playing and found that I was just naturally mixing together a number of different scales.

I'm now wondering how I can do this with language learning. How do I get to the point where I just use it without thinking about it? I used to be unable to play piano (or guitar) without visualizing chords, notes, scales, and relationships between them. I didn't think it was possible to improvise without doing this. Now I can just naturally play without thinking about the details of those things and I'm hearing how it sounds and feels. It's triggered my thinking about what methods of language learning would most closely parallel what I was doing on piano. I starting to think it is indeed possible for me to learn to use a new language in a similar manner if I can figure out what methods and approaches to use.

I'm just wondering if anyone has had similar experiences and what methods and approaches started to clear your mind of the clutter and distraction of grammar and rules. I'd be curious to hear what others' thoughts are on this. Maybe improvising music is too far removed from language use to be of use. However, I am intrigued about this mental transition that occurred rather quickly and easily for me just because I adopted a different approach to playing. I'm also wondering if people have already been saying this and I was just too dense to notice it or understand that is what they meant. :)
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Re: Un-cluttering my mind for languages

Postby zenmonkey » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:42 pm

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Re: Un-cluttering my mind for languages

Postby Ani » Thu Jan 24, 2019 11:59 pm

My impression is that your ability to flow with music is more a direct result of learning the notes and scales well, rather than clearing your mind of it. I've noticed similar facility with language come from the audiolingual & over learning approach. You might like the results of FSI -- I certainly did.

Edit: Fixed an abominable your/you're error. Yikes.
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Re: Un-cluttering my mind for languages

Postby Cavesa » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:19 pm

Steve wrote:I'm now wondering how I can do this with language learning. How do I get to the point where I just use it without thinking about it? I used to be unable to play piano (or guitar) without visualizing chords, notes, scales, and relationships between them. I didn't think it was possible to improvise without doing this. Now I can just naturally play without thinking about the details of those things and I'm hearing how it sounds and feels. It's triggered my thinking about what methods of language learning would most closely parallel what I was doing on piano. I starting to think it is indeed possible for me to learn to use a new language in a similar manner if I can figure out what methods and approaches to use.

I'm just wondering if anyone has had similar experiences and what methods and approaches started to clear your mind of the clutter and distraction of grammar and rules. I'd be curious to hear what others' thoughts are on this. Maybe improvising music is too far removed from language use to be of use. However, I am intrigued about this mental transition that occurred rather quickly and easily for me just because I adopted a different approach to playing. I'm also wondering if people have already been saying this and I was just too dense to notice it or understand that is what they meant. :)


Just like Ani, I don't think the chords and scales were a problem. They are somewhere in the brain, as a pool of patterns you can draw from. But you are now using all that you have learnt in a more intuitive way and has been spending more time playing directly what you want..

There are clear analogies in the language learning. The grammar is not some superfluous stuff cluttering a mind. The explicit lessons help create the patterns. But only lots of practice and exposure get someone to using them automatically and in a way we want. Including breaking the rules sometimes.

I personally don't think you would have improved your music that much through experimentation and practice now, if you hadn't been learning the rules and patterns before.

If I may add personal experience, I can clearly see the positive influence of both the scales and explicit grammar in my music or languages. Yes, lots of practice and listening and experimentation are necessary to put the whole thing in motion and to focus on the bigger picture and not the details. But the "boring" lessons are there, hidden in the brain, as a pool of resources I can draw from.

I can clearly see the effect of not moving on from the scales/grammar rules. But on the other hand, I can clearly see the suboptimal production, if I have been too lazy to learn something properly. The scales and chords patterns are awesome for playing the more difficult pieces. And having learnt the grammar is great for speaking automatically and right.

edit: the first sentence, I had put a a "not" there and it changed the meaning to the opposite (probably wasn't paying enough attention).
Last edited by Cavesa on Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Un-cluttering my mind for languages

Postby SGP » Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:55 pm

Steve wrote:I'm now wondering how I can do this with language learning. How do I get to the point where I just use it without thinking about it? I used to be unable to play piano (or guitar) without visualizing chords, notes, scales, and relationships between them. I didn't think it was possible to improvise without doing this. Now I can just naturally play without thinking about the details of those things and I'm hearing how it sounds and feels. It's triggered my thinking about what methods of language learning would most closely parallel what I was doing on piano. I starting to think it is indeed possible for me to learn to use a new language in a similar manner if I can figure out what methods and approaches to use.

I'm just wondering if anyone has had similar experiences and what methods and approaches started to clear your mind of the clutter and distraction of grammar and rules. I'd be curious to hear what others' thoughts are on this. Maybe improvising music is too far removed from language use to be of use.
Y'know... some do consider Music a language on its own. And I am among them, too. Also, there was an experience about learning to improvise both of melodic tunes and (EN / ES / ...) sentence patterns. The first non-native language I started being able to "improvise" was English, after a semi-long period of Immersion and Exposure. Later on, it was about some other languages, including Spanish and Music. As for melodies, I also had a very long period of Immersion and Exposure. In addition, I had been reading some Music Grammar Books a.k.a. books on Music Theory.

Nowadays, I don't refer to them any more at all, because their concepts (or more specifically, the concepts of Western Music Theory that I decided to adapt) became part of my second nature even... The same for some aspects of Español, Swahili, and a few more. As for other aspects, or other tongues, I still do refer to grammar books.

In short, it is about getting to know any particular language better as the time moves on, "meeting" it often enough and long enough. We could even compare that to meeting just any person. There is a grand difference between (1) short meetings and shallow smalltalk conversations, and (2) long meetings and going in-depth.
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Re: Un-cluttering my mind for languages

Postby Steve » Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:01 pm

I appreciate the comments and feedback. This is more of a research question for me right now because of the completely unexpected change in mental activity when playing piano. I'm trying to understand how and why this change occurred and what I can learn from it for things other than music. I'm also considering how to move forward so my playing doesn't fossilize at one level. I'm seeing many common principles underlying learning various things such as music and language. I've trying to leverage what I learn in one field to use in others.

With regard to flow, I don't think that's what I'm dealing with here. I'm familiar with flow and being in the zone. It's common for me when programming, writing, researching things, and playing music to become so engrossed I don't notice anything else. It usually comes to an end when I have a sudden ache from sitting in one position too long, or I realize my eyes are burning so badly I need to take a break, or my hands start to cramp and hurt.

In one sense, this reminds me of when I first started to learn to type (on a manual typewriter). I spent weeks typing words one letter at time. I remember one day when I unexpectedly typed the word "the". Instead of t-h-e, I thought "the" and my fingers just did it. Within a short time, I noticed that I was thinking in words more and more and individual letters less and less. It's that type of change that occurred in my piano playing. It's like things jumped to a different level than where they were at. It was unexpected and quickly followed using a different approach to learning new things on piano. It's similar to the jump I saw when I started practicing actual language skills (in particular reading) and started to see real skills develop.

My background is math and physics so I always found music as both applied physics and a mathematical-like language easy to understand. With music, I've spent 30 years or so with a solid base in major, minor, melodic minor, and basic blues scales. This was reflected in my improvisation and playing in that I rarely went outside those bounds. Whenever I was playing, it was like there were two layers of intense activity in my head. One was fitting into the flow of the song and the other was making sure I stayed within the rules musically speaking. Over the past 6 months, it's that something unexpected changed. I found that when I started practicing improvising without worrying about rules and just played that the theory layer of effort in my head quickly vanished. I no longer have a music theory policeman in my head telling me what is right and what is wrong. It's my ear and subjective musical sense telling me what is working or not working. I'm now using scales and chord combinations that are not scales or chords that I ever explicitly learned. Indeed, if I slow down and hold particular combinations, some sound extremely dissonant. However, when playing at speed, I like how they sound. I'd emphasize too that my interest is in creating new music rather than playing particular songs in a particular fixed manner.

Right now, my working hypothesis is that my brain is transitioning from processing music as being notes fitting into a series of prescribed patterns to how I hear and feel them as I play. It's more like I'm now remembering things by how they sound and feel than by their description on paper. I noticed a similar transition in mental activity a few years ago when I left a grammar-translation approach to much more input of native sources.
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Re: Un-cluttering my mind for languages

Postby garyb » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:41 am

I don't have much to add, but this has been a very interesting read since I'm also into music and have been learning improvisation for a few years, and have thought about the parallels with speaking a language. It just sounds like the transition from conscious competence to unconscious competence. In languages I'm convinced that there's a continuum between precision and fluency. Thinking too much about precision slows down your speaking and stops you from flowing freely, but it does help you to apply and internalise the rules, which then apply themselves more automatically when you aim for the "fluency" side and focus less on the rules and more on getting your point across and staying present in the conversation. There's a time and place for both approaches, and they're complementary.

In improvisation, I sometimes try to pay a lot of attention to the chords and which notes I "should" be playing over them, and other times I try to just clear my mind, let it flow, and trust my ears and fingers. I usually play better and more expressively during the second type of session, despite making more mistakes, but that's not to say the first doesn't have value and in fact that's where I'm learning to apply the material consciously so it can then become unconscious. At times I'll also "complete the circle" by analysing something I did spontaneously that sounded good, in order to understand why it sounded good and how I can apply it again. The link between learning a language (study, intensive input and output, etc.) and putting it into use it certainly has similarities.

I do hear comparisons of music to language quite often, especially in the context of jazz improvisation. The Berkeley online course (which I've not done, but will someday!) is based around the idea of improvisation as a language. At times I dislike these comparisons, especially the simplistic ideas about people with musical talent also having talent for languages, but in this case I can see it.
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Re: Un-cluttering my mind for languages

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:35 am

I'm with garyb - both approaches are important. Focused practice has its merits, but I only "level up" when I play freely.
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