Could one ever enjoy a sophisticated novel in foreign language

[asianlanguages3]

It is possible only if you sacrifice too much time learning the language. This is because there is a need to specifically train vocabulary to be able to understand and enjoy all the subtle parts of the text. After learning about 10,000 words, the words you need to know rarely appear in a text. For example, even if you read books avidly, you come across the word you want to memorize once every 10-20 books. This will make it difficult for you to memorize and remember that word. Therefore, it seems that perhaps buying a dictionary and memorizing is more approachable to read sophisticated novels. I trust my English vocabulary capacity, I can easly read metamorphosis by Franz Kafka, but it is tiring to read Ulysses or Moby Dick for example because of the low frequency words.

[einzelne]

For example, even if you read books avidly, you come across the word you want to memorize once every 10-20 books.

As I mentioned above, with e-readers and built-in dictionaries it's no longer an issue. I read such books without any disruption.

[chikara]

My native language is German, I left school with English knowledge of B1 level, learned after school until I reached B2 and worked abroad for about three years. In the countries I have worked, English was not used much by the people, but it was the language at work and since I did not know the native languages in those countries, also the language I used in my spare time. Most of my colleagues were no native English speakers. Their English is similar to mine, just that they make different errors. Since nine years, I am back in Germany and maintain my English by reading international news in English, watching my movies in English and once in a while reading an English book or listening to an audiobook. I have tested my English twice and the result was both times C1. Though my passive English is way better than my active one.
If somebody would ask me how I feel about my English, I would say: My grammar could be better, my pronunciation could be better, but I am proud of having a big vocabulary.
Non fiction books are no problem for me, but novels are tricky. I enjoy simple novels though it is not the same as reading in my native language. For example I read the first three Harry Potter books. I read slower in English than in German, but I understood the books easily and enjoyed them. The fourth Harry Potter book I read in German, only then I realised that it is written in a simple language for teenagers….I did not like the style, it felt dull and I got so bored that I did not finish the book.

But then there are the difficult novels. I once tried to read Steven King (I haven’t read Steven King before, also not in German). It was a thick book, I understood the plot without any problems or misunderstandings, everything was clear to me. But it was so so boring. I thought, give that author a chance, he cannot be that bad, just try harder…. After I forced myself through 400 pages I gave up, I simply could not finish “such a boring book”. It was frustrating and I thought about what could be the reason. Maybe Steven King was not for me… or could there be other reasons?
He uses a lot of descriptive words which I do not know. Such words I do not look up since they are not necessary to understand the plot but they seem to be the reason, that sometimes when he describes a scene over three or four pages to create a certain atmosphere (while there is not much happening)…this is when I get this feeling “ok, I got it, now go on, you are boring!”.

I have then taken an English vocabulary test and found out that my vocabulary is just shy of 10.000 words. That confirmed to me, I might have deficits in English, but my vocabulary is the part I really can be proud of. Then I took a German vocabulary test: 43.000 words.
The reason I have never made the effort to achieve C2 in English is that I have realised it helps you to become better in grammar than the average native speaker, but your vocabulary still cannot compete with that of a 14 year old… and finally it is vocabulary that matters.
I would rather kill myself than to write 30.000 words on flash cards and hammer them into my head, knowing I needed many years to learn 10.000 words.

I was so frustrated. When I joined a Spanish language course, on the teacher’s question about what our goals would be, one student answered “One day I want to read a book by Gabriel Garcia Marquez in Spanish”. I simply said: “No, you will not.” The student and the teacher looked at me as if I were the Grinch who just destroyed Christmas, so I went on “Never, let’s face it!”
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But there is a bit of hope left, I might be wrong. I recently observed that sometimes / seldom, when you understand a new word from the context and the author uses it frequently, you acquire it while reading the book. Maybe if you just read loads and loads and loads of books…. ?

I doubt it, but how about your experience?
Will a non native speaker ever be able to learn or somehow acquire, the necessary vocabulary to enjoy a sophisticated novel?

Enjoying a sophisticated novel in a foreign language can be a deeply rewarding experience. It challenges your language skills and offers fresh perspectives on complex themes. Reading in another language often reveals nuances and cultural contexts that might be lost in translation. It also enhances your appreciation of the author's original style and intentions. While it can be demanding, especially with intricate plots or advanced vocabulary, the effort pays off in enriched understanding and personal growth. Ultimately, immersing yourself in a sophisticated novel in a foreign language can be a profound and enriching literary journey.

[Iversen]

It is possible only if you sacrifice too much time learning the language. This is because there is a need to specifically train vocabulary to be able to understand and enjoy all the subtle parts of the text..

If you want to read certain types of literature and you need to study X hours to achieve that goal, then X hours is not "too much" - it's actually precisely enough to get there. If you think it's too much then it's because your wish to read that stuff is just not burning enough.

That being said: the idea that you need to do a certain number of hours amassing vocabulary from books in order to read for instance Balzac or Joyce or Dostojevsky or Strindberg is suspect. As you and others in this thread have hinted at, the really rare words are so rare that you are unlikely to see them very often. So you cannot prepare yourself for meeting them. Which leaves three alternatives: pop up dictionaries (or paper dictionaries, which may be probably the best ones, but also cumbersome and slow to use), bilingual editions including those made by a machine from literature in digital form .. and as the third option: amassing a sizeable background vocabulary through direct study methods, be it Anki or wordlists or whatever. But not all are happy aboout those last methods, and it takes time and had work before you have stocked enough words, and until you have reached a suitable level you will willy-nilly have to supplement with dictionaries or bilinguals or skip important information along the way.

The problem is that you may know twenty thousand headwords in a language, but that won't save you from running into new unknown ones. Even a dictionary with twice that number will still not contain every word some random author may have used to spice up some flowery passage - you will definitely have foound that out yourself by trying in vain to look something up in a dictionary. And if even a dictionary with forty thousand words isn't omniscient enough then you can't be expected to be either. So a combination of hardcore study PLUS easy lookup mechanisms PLUS a certain amount of indulgence with things you don't understand is what you need to read difficult stuff.

One thing more: expressions and stylistic tricks can't be learned bulkwise as easily as single denotative words - they will have to be picked up from the contexts in which they occur, but to do this you have to master the language in question well enough to decode those contexts. And then there will goddammit still be basic information which you don't have got because you are a foreigner, quite possibly from a different era. There is a reason why serious editions of Dante's Commeddia have almost as much space reserved for footnotes as for the text itself. That's because Dante knew more about Italy in the 14. century than you do.

[tarvos]

I have enjoyed sophisticated novels in a foreign language. I'll use Spanish as my example; I've read poetry in Spanish (I did a few courses of poetry and poetry writing in Spanish) and I've read novels in Spanish as well, including fantasy works and so on. Partially this is because I follow a Spanish creative writing academy, but partially it's these days because I also write in Spanish myself (and it's the only language I'm a published author in!).

Spanish is emphatically not my native tongue. I learned it as an adult. It *is* my working language and a language I use on a daily basis just because I'm an interpreter, which means I have an excellent command of it, but it's still not native.

I could go on to name other examples in French, German or Russian, but I feel there's no need to do that.

There are also plenty of people that translate literature professionally. So of course it's possible.
The real question is: how long does it take before your reading constitutes enjoyment. Unfortunately there are no clear-cut answers there, your mileage may vary.

What I would say rather is to simply go out and try how much you can do and how much energy you are willing to spend on difficult vocabulary.

[lichtrausch]

Vocabulary is like money. If you have a lot of it, it's easier to accumulate even more. There's usually a hook I can use for memorizing a new word in stronger languages and those related to them. Often through etymology, or sometimes I just like the sound or shape of a word. That frees me to a certain extent from this statistical trap of needing to encounter every new word x times within y period of time in order for it to stick.

Another issue is how many unknown words can you tolerate and still enjoy the novel. I'm okay with coming across an unknown word every three or four pages, and looking it up or not based on the circumstances. That would amount to around 100 unknown words in a novel of average length. This all applies just as well to novels in my native language.

[lusan]

I have not been here for a while.... Sof. Novels? Of course, last years I read War and Peace, Brother Karamazov, etc. in ITALIAN. Why italian? I moved to Italy... For a while I was reading French Classic in French... then I stopped. Back to read Italian novels written only by italian authors. They have a completely different feeling... they feel right... I am a native Dominican, so native Spanish speaker...